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Post by happybunny on Jul 29, 2009 13:45:24 GMT
I heard the other day that the S Stock cab door will not have a 'interlock cut out' switch available (as per current C/D stock) and will be permanently 'cut in'. Therefor motoring not available with the cab door open.
Can anyone confirm if this is true or not? If so will it be both cab doors or just the drivers side one?
Why couldn't they install sliding down windows in the drivers cab door so that they could be opened to observe the platform when first motoring/provide ventilation etc? These are common I think in most mainline stocks, especially new ones.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2009 14:50:24 GMT
If this is the case, I will be refusing a train with defective cab air con.
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Post by happybunny on Jul 29, 2009 14:54:56 GMT
I understand if the cab air-con is bust you can open a pipe and your air-con will come from the punters supply.
However, I know of drivers who don't use the air-con, some even claim it makes them ill ! They drive with the offside door open instead.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2009 16:31:03 GMT
My training delivery notes do not show a cab door cut out switch. I wonder what the position is if the cab door interlock becomes defective? Unless it's tied in with the train doors interlocks and cut out switch, but that would require train to be taken out of service! odd. This argument has been ongoing for a while (and lost I believe). A lot of drivers don't like the air con system (myself included - In Summer I like a warm breeze from the door, not an icy blast from the way too cold air con. In Autum and Spring I don't want any draughts or air flow entering the cab from anywhere (unless it's climate controlled to my specified temperature)). My main concern would be the adequacy of the cab heating in the winter ...an area that LU trains have a notoriously poor track record on ! I am relying on the assurances that "they" (  ) have specified it right.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2009 23:59:03 GMT
Aspect, you are lucky you don't often take me off, My cab is often like a fridge.
You currently have a choice of an open door or air con on a hot day. On the S stock you will not have a choice of an open door to cool a sun baked west end cab in the afternoon apart from the air con.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Jul 30, 2009 0:20:58 GMT
I heard the other day that the S Stock cab door will not have a 'interlock cut out' switch available (as per current C/D stock) and will be permanently 'cut in'. Therefor motoring not available with the cab door open. Can anyone confirm if this is true or not? If so will it be both cab doors or just the drivers side one? Why couldn't they install sliding down windows in the drivers cab door so that they could be opened to observe the platform when first motoring/provide ventilation etc? These are common I think in most mainline stocks, especially new ones. This was discussed in a mammoth thread on the Met board........and that thread led to the creation of this very board. Anyway, moving on from the history lesson.......it is indeed true that you will not be able to motor an S stock with a cab door open, nor will there be any opening cab windows. Don't forget, this train is being built to operate in ATO - the rationale therefore is that the train op must be in the cab when the start buttons are pressed. The lesson was learned a long time ago (so the story goes) when a Vic line train op left his cab to seek info after pressing the start buttons and having no movement. Train then picks up a code and moves off leaving the train op behind. Personally speaking, I prefer fresh air; but I have no objection to air con as long as it works... |
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Post by happybunny on Jul 30, 2009 1:29:10 GMT
Im sure it wouldn't have cost them that much more to have put a window in the cab door that could be manually lowered by the driver..... priorities :S
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2009 1:34:24 GMT
Slightly O.T. There is a notice to c2c drivers in the WB T/OPs waiting room at Barking instructing them not to leave open the cab droplights when the cab heating or air con is on.
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Post by Chris M on Jul 30, 2009 1:38:24 GMT
I have a vague recollection of reading that it wasn't a cost issue but a practical issue. I think it was said that opening windows require thicker doors, which would require a redesign of the door and the body-side behind the cab door, which in turn impacted on something else. This doesn't explain why opening windows weren't in the design from the start though.
Another option would be to setting the ATO system so that the driver has to be proved in the cab (e.g. by holding the handle) before commencing any movement. An emergency remote override of this in case of an incapacitated t/op would be a good idea with this, but also in the 'no motoring with cab doors open' rule.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jul 31, 2009 0:23:06 GMT
Blimey, it's too late in the evening (or is it early in the morning?) to go into this in detail now. The cab door interlock cut out switch was not included in the design on my instructions and you will not be able to motor with a cab door, 'N' or 'O', open unless you are in Restricted Manual (RM) which limits your speed to 16km/h. There are various reasons for this but the main one is safety, safety in particular when in ATO, and the fact that if we had a cut out switch it would be permanently cut out (your talking to an ex-'C' Stock driver here!!). The provision of droplight windows is a whole other ball game which I have also gone over in great length both here and everywhere else (why can I feel another mammoth thread coming on here?!!). The last stock we had fitted with droplights was 1972 and they are no longer a requirement on modern tube stock. The cab is fitted with full dual-redundancy air conditioning and if you don't like air con you can switch the conditioning element of the system off and just have fresh filtered air. An open aperture in the cab (door, window, or otherwise) is not a good idea and District line TU Rep's have actually made management install spooling on 'D' Stock side cab door windows due to fears over missile strikes, the Met has had over 136 incidents related to missile strikes in the last three years alone. Any open window or door also increases noise and pollution levels in the cab too. Jim - Whilst the DISI has't been written yet, I am sure if the air con fails and then the back up system fails or the filtered air system fails in general then no one will come after you if you decide to put it away in the yard. Also we are aware of the massive hit we will have to take on the chin if you have to limp a train to the nearest depot or siding with a cab door failed open or failed to prove closed, but it is so rare it shouldn't be too much of an issue. Colin, help!! Please direct everyone to the old thread, you know the one where I got slaughtered over this issue but soldiered on regardless anyway!! I am on annual leave after tommorrow so if I don't answer the abusive PM's i'm sure you are all going to send please forgive me, I am just in hiding about 30km north of Barcelona!  |
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Post by prjb on Jul 31, 2009 0:31:19 GMT
I understand if the cab air-con is bust you can open a pipe and your air-con will come from the punters supply. However, I know of drivers who don't use the air-con, some even claim it makes them ill ! They drive with the offside door open instead. The switch over to take the saloon supply in the event of a failure of the cab HVAC system is automatic. Don't panic if you are a passenger though, as the adjacent saloon air con is designed to 'ramp up' in order to feed the effected car via the gangway. I think that people getting ill from air con usage is a bit of an urban myth, I suspect you get more germs from the tunnel air (or London air in general!) than you do from a filtered air supply system. Some water based systems have a risk of people contracting Legionaires disease but the people at risk in these circumstances are those outside of the conditioned environment (ie; those who are standing outside by the outlet pipe!) rather than those inside. Also the 'S' Stock is fitted with a dry system so this is not a risk in any case. |
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Post by prjb on Jul 31, 2009 0:34:51 GMT
Aspect, you are lucky you don't often take me off, My cab is often like a fridge. You currently have a choice of an open door or air con on a hot day. On the S stock you will not have a choice of an open door to cool a sun baked west end cab in the afternoon apart from the air con. Come on Jim, do you think I hadn't thought about you? The HVAC in the rear cab continues to cool or heat regardless of if there is a key in (provided there is currently or there has been an active cab in the last 30 mins) so you will not be changing ends at Upminster to an oven/fridge. I will also personally come down and bless your cotton socks too, but only because it's you!! ;D |
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Post by prjb on Jul 31, 2009 0:36:49 GMT
Im sure it wouldn't have cost them that much more to have put a window in the cab door that could be manually lowered by the driver..... priorities :S It's not cost!  Somebody kill me now!!  When you lot keep saying 'them' about 'S' Stock you will generally find it ends up meaning 'me'. I need a holiday. |
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Post by prjb on Jul 31, 2009 0:41:41 GMT
Slightly O.T. There is a notice to c2c drivers in the WB T/OPs waiting room at Barking instructing them not to leave open the cab droplights when the cab heating or air con is on. You will probably find the system is designed to operate in a sealed environment and if the HVAC is working against an open window (trying to heat or cool the entire planet in effect!) then it will fail prematurely and the manufacturer would not honour the warranty. The 'S' Stock cab is sealed, it's so sealed in fact that when you switch off the HVAC system it doesn't actually switch off completely as we still need to ensure that air enters the cab to prevent a build up of Co2. The air flow will not be perceptable but it is allowing new air in and stale air out. |
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Post by prjb on Jul 31, 2009 0:49:20 GMT
I have a vague recollection of reading that it wasn't a cost issue but a practical issue. I think it was said that opening windows require thicker doors, which would require a redesign of the door and the body-side behind the cab door, which in turn impacted on something else. This doesn't explain why opening windows weren't in the design from the start though. No, your referring to the reason why we made the first set of passenger doors narrower than the rest I think. This was to prevent the outside hung cab doors and passenger doors from fouling each other in the event of them both being opened together. option would be to setting the ATO system so that the driver has to be proved in the cab (e.g. by holding the handle) before commencing any movement. An emergency remote override of this in case of an incapacitated t/op would be a good idea with this, but also in the 'no motoring with cab doors open' rule. The driver does have to be proved in the cab, he or she has to hold the ATO start buttons for 2 seconds, although the train will commence departure the moment they are pressed if they are released before 2 seconds then the train will stop. This doesn't prevent drivers from starting their train with their head stuck out of the open door or window though. Before you all tell me that this is crazy, I have the figures somehwhere for how many Guards came into contact with the headwall when we had them. Yes you could limit the amount a window could open and interlock the window (as on 67/72ts) but this would mean lots of expensive relays which introduce more failure modes for what is essentially a 'crack' of a window opening in a cab that is fitted with a modern HVAC system with dual redundancy. |
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Post by happybunny on Jul 31, 2009 0:54:46 GMT
Will we be able to open the M Door, prop it open with a shoe paddle and motor then ? |
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Post by prjb on Jul 31, 2009 0:59:15 GMT
Will we be able to open the M Door, prop it open with a shoe paddle and motor then ? Thats it, I give up!! ;D ;D Not in ATO you won't as it forms part of the pilot light circuit, and at nearly 2 in the morning I can't remember if that is also the case in PM operation. I will have to check and find out at a more sociable hour! |
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Post by happybunny on Jul 31, 2009 1:05:03 GMT
Will we be able to open the M Door, prop it open with a shoe paddle and motor then ? Thats it, I give up!! ;D ;D Not in ATO you won't as it forms part of the pilot light circuit, and at nearly 2 in the morning I can't remember if that is also the case in PM operation. I will have to check and find out at a more sociable hour! Thats alright I will probably be retired by the time ATO comes on the District  I imagine so will Seth even! Well lets hope so anyway. |
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Post by happybunny on Jul 31, 2009 1:10:26 GMT
I need a holiday. You deserve one... Us T/Op's are fussy lots... you will never please all of us, though I am quite easy pleased. Personally I DO prefer the air-con, I very rarely drive with the cab door open. But I must say sometimes I like to stretch my legs for a few stations and stand up on the platform to close the doors the motor whilst observing the platform from the door, the close it just as I'm motoring away.. Thats the only reason I asked about doors/windows etc.. but really its no biggy to me! |
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Post by xover on Aug 31, 2009 17:44:37 GMT
[/quote]
The HVAC in the rear cab continues to cool or heat regardless of if there is a key in (provided there is currently or there has been an active cab in the last 30 mins) so you will not be changing ends at Upminster to an oven/fridge.
[/quote]
Does this mean that a driver, when arriving in the cold winter months to his S Stock in the depot will be confronted with a freezing cold cab as the 30 min rule will have lapsed during the night while the train awaits its next departure and long after the engneers and cleaners have finished with it? Or is there a "base" temperature that will always be maintained, regardless.
XOVER
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Aug 31, 2009 21:22:55 GMT
No, the system will go into what is called 'Set Back' mode and keep the cab within a pre-defined temperature limit. So if the temperature drops the heating will kick in, and conversely if the temp rises the cooling will kick in. Once a key is inserted the system will then commence heating/cooling to the required level.
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) have specified it right. 
I imagine so will Seth even! Well lets hope so anyway.
