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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2009 17:34:03 GMT
Wow, should it go ahead this will be the first all out RMT strike since I joined this forum. Was wondering what those members who work for LU think about the proposed action?....
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Post by upfast on May 28, 2009 18:16:07 GMT
On the first (illegal) ballot I voted No. My views changed on the second one. Management have put out memos telling people to vote so they can get the views of staff (well something like that - I'm sure someone will copy and paste it). So. There they have it. They know that many staff are not happy with their pay "offer".
Personally it is not the first year percentage offer that I dislike, it is the four sebsequent years. Having said that, it would be a gamble should RPI rocket!
Regardless of what else in the World is happening, tube staff productivity is increasing, targets are being exceeded and more trains than ever before are being run. So a pay cut in real terms is not a fair offer.
So hopefully LU will return to the table so that thousands of staff don't lose a day or two of pay and millions of people can get to work and about their lives.
Mayor Boris Johnson said on the news tonight that it was a fair offer, so I look forward to him and his Administration rewarding themselves with a 0.5% pay offer. Then he mentioned that the turnout was 40%, well the Mayoral election turnout in 2008 was 45% and in 2004 38%!
And I thought that Steve Hedley came across very well on BBC LDN
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2009 18:30:37 GMT
As Metronet is now under the LU umbrella, will the Infraco people be taking part in this strike as well?
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Colin
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Post by Colin on May 28, 2009 18:32:28 GMT
Wow, should it go ahead this will be the first all out RMT strike since I joined this forum. You've only been with us since January, and stikes don't occur that often!! Was wondering what those members who work for LU think about the proposed action?.... Premature. The RMT has claimed that they have a strong mandate - pity the figures don't support that: 2,810 in favour of a strike with 488 against yet they have around 10,000 members eligible to vote It is also the RMT that has completely failed to fully follow through the proper process of discussions in relation to pay. Yes we all agree the companys pay offer isn't acceptable, but striking at this stage is far too early. I'm just glad I ain't in the RMT.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2009 18:37:28 GMT
Wow, should it go ahead this will be the first all out RMT strike since I joined this forum. You've only been with us since January, and stikes don't occur that often!! Yes, I meant that this will be the first oppertunity I have ahad to get real LU staff opinions. Personally, I am not a Bob Crow/RMT fan. After saying that, I do think Unions, once as they don't become too militant, are a good thing.
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Post by Tomcakes on May 28, 2009 20:24:02 GMT
I don't know the exact ins and outs of the disagreement this time around, but sadly LU is actually part of the rest of the world. Considering we have deflation at the moment, surely the only way that staff could get a "real terms" pay cut would be if they reduced pay?
I don't think it would be wise at all to lash out on large pay increases at the time when most of us are getting little, nothing or a reduction.
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Phil
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Post by Phil on May 28, 2009 21:51:01 GMT
And yet the Bristol binmen have been out on stike because they consider a 2.5% (one year) pay increase far too small. So it's not only in London there's an outbreak of total unreality.......
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Colin
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Post by Colin on May 29, 2009 3:32:12 GMT
So it's not only in London there's an outbreak of total unreality....... Interesting choice of words there Phil!! For clarification, the offer on the table (and this is the improved version) is: RPI+1% in the first year (2009 - 2010) and RPI+0.5% for a further four years (2010 - 2014). There are no other changes to conditions. The relevant RPI for year one is 0%, so that's a pay increase this year of 1% and no real guarantees for the next four years, up to 2014. This deal, if it were accepted as is, would take us through the Olympics - the event where LU has promised a 24 hour service through both the opening and closing ceremonies despite the fact there is no agreement in place to staff it. In fact LU currently has no idea how they are going to staff it yet!! And we are supposed to sign up to that?
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Phil
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Post by Phil on May 29, 2009 7:16:43 GMT
Yes, I wasn't meaning to imply it was the staff side who were being unreal: nobody in their right mind would sign up for that 'deal'. And I have no idea how far the negotiations (?!?!?!) have reached. But surely the time for a strike is when management are about to impose a 'final offer' and not before. I'm also well aware that this particular management has a history of dragging things out so they DON'T have to pay for a long time after settlement date if they can. It just seems that once again Bob Crow (with all his outdated ulterior motives) is making the whole thing look tacky and yet again giving the bosses the ammunition to paint the unions as the villains in the press.
Rather than them just rant and rave, I wonder (perhaps someone here can tell us) if the RMT have done the responsible thing and put forward their own deal for management to consider. Something like a one year deal only, with a settlement of, say, 3% negotiable. They could sell that sort of thing in the press and for once take the high ground
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Post by happybunny on May 29, 2009 7:35:57 GMT
i am hoping the whole thing is sorted out before the strike dates, I don't really want to go on strike especially with just moving house, got a mortgage to pay now etc.. times are hard! But if needs be, I will support my union. LUL should offer a reasonable 2 year deal, even if the pay rise isn't great at least its not going to be for 5 years ! Id love to see how much Boris and his cronies are getting in a payrise this year.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on May 29, 2009 8:30:13 GMT
Fair comments Phil ^^^^^^^
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Post by Dmitri on May 29, 2009 11:36:39 GMT
Regardless of what else in the World is happening, tube staff productivity is increasing, targets are being exceeded and more trains than ever before are being run. So a pay cut in real terms is not a fair offer. For clarification, the offer on the table (and this is the improved version) is: RPI+1% in the first year (2009 - 2010) and RPI+0.5% for a further four years (2010 - 2014). There are no other changes to conditions. The relevant RPI for year one is 0%, so that's a pay increase this year of 1% and no real guarantees for the next four years, up to 2014. To make you feel better... The system I develop and supervise works great, handling significantly increased load faster than year ago on the same hardware. Nevertheless I had to swallow a 15% pay cut. On the bright side, no more pay cuts are expected. However, no salary increases are expected either, in spite of significant inflation.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2009 15:08:25 GMT
Just wondered, are there any dates that are being bounded about yet, because the last I heard LUL and the RMT were getting ready to go "round the table"?
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Post by Tomcakes on May 29, 2009 15:15:21 GMT
Were the RMT happy to support (RPI + n)% when the RPI was high?
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Post by upfast on May 29, 2009 16:27:39 GMT
Were the RMT happy to support (RPI + n)% when the RPI was high? Actually if my memory serves me right, they didn't There was a ballot but no strike. In the end it did work out well.
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metman
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Post by metman on May 29, 2009 18:12:16 GMT
They are lucky to have a job! I'm glad, I'm buying a house with my girlfiend, I'd be stuffed without my job!
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2009 1:05:33 GMT
Were the RMT happy to support (RPI + n)% when the RPI was high? I think the main issue they have at the moment is the fact that it's a five year deal (and a low percentage figure), rather than the fact that it's RPI linked. Or am I misunderstanding the question here?
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Colin
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Post by Colin on May 30, 2009 11:28:48 GMT
Just wondered, are there any dates that are being bounded about yet Yes, the dates were announced when the strike ballot result was!! 48 hours from 7pm on Tuesday 9th June. In reality though, it applies to book on times so will actually spread across three days and won't be strictly 48 hours. The service would be wound down on the Tuesday evening as the night turns * start the strike, meaning the first to book on after the strike has ended at 6.59pm on Thursday 11th would be the night turns * - so in reality services won't be restored until the morning of Friday 12th. * there are a small number of [driver] late turns that book on after 7pm - we have 3 at Upminster - but in the grand scheme of things, it's the night turns across all grades which count.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2009 15:52:06 GMT
Id love to see how much Boris and his cronies are getting in a payrise this year. Based on the salaries given on the GLA web site both the mayor and assembly members have received a 0.96% increase in their salary for 2009/10 over what they earned the previous year.
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Post by Tomcakes on May 30, 2009 19:40:42 GMT
Id love to see how much Boris and his cronies are getting in a payrise this year. Based on the salaries given on the GLA web site both the mayor and assembly members have received a 0.96% increase in their salary for 2009/10 over what they earned the previous year. ... and council workers (who, it should be added, are generally on far less than LU staff) will be getting 0.5%.
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Post by Colin on May 31, 2009 0:26:41 GMT
However none of them work on the railway or do jobs that are in any way similar (ie, shift work, working any 5 days out of 7 including public holidays, take abuse from customers, can only drink to certain parameters (owing to zero tolerance and random testing), undergo training and be licenced in safety critical activities, undergo annual refresher training to be re-licenced in said safety critical activities, have annual leave dates allocated by the company, etc, etc).
The training for many roles also requires the employee to adsorb and retain a lot of information, in particular the train operator training period is around 5 months and for a controller it is around six months. Train operators need to learn all the operating procedures, as well as their own stocks inside out - on the District and Bakerloo lines they also have to learn the Network Rail rules and operating procedures which are very different from LU's. Controllers have to know all 22 rule books, amongst other things.
Station Supervisors shouldn't be forgotten - they have legal responsibilities at all times for their stations, including any incident that should ever occur.
These jobs are not paid on the basis of what the employee does on a routine basis, but are paid on the basis of the knowledge required to do the job in any circumstance you can think of from a simple train defect to a full scale service affecting emergency. That's why you cannot compare us to any other sector and why we are paid what we are. It's also why we feel we are entitled to be insulted at LU's offer - we do appreciate the 'current financial climate' and that others are not so fortunate, but we've also worked hard to get the jobs we have.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2009 0:49:00 GMT
And adding to what Colin said, have these people had their hands tied for a 5 year period on thier deal?
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Post by Tomcakes on May 31, 2009 1:22:35 GMT
Of course, many LU positions are highly skilled as you say, and that's why they attract the pay they do. I wasn't arguing on an "LU-staff-are-paid-too-much" angle - but that I'm not sure why it's such a bad offer. Those receiving it will still - in real terms - be better off than previously, since the rise is 1% above the prevailing RPI.
And, at a time when there's all sorts of rumours about TfL redundancies being bandied about, surely a large pay rise would make such redundancies more likely? In an ideal world, money would grow on trees and the pay rise could be paid for without virements from elsewhere, but the real world is not ideal.
Although, I do agree that considering the "volatile" state of the economy at the moment (things could be very different in a couple of years), sticking to anything for 5 years is a bit silly.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2009 7:37:32 GMT
Although, I do agree that considering the "volatile" state of the economy at the moment (things could be very different in a couple of years), sticking to anything for 5 years is a bit silly. Well, that's pretty much it - if it was 1% and a one year deal, then I don't think many drivers would object judging by what I've heard and seen discussed. Of course, I expect the RMT would still be kicking up a fuss about it, but there you go.
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Phil
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Post by Phil on May 31, 2009 8:40:12 GMT
Although, I do agree that considering the "volatile" state of the economy at the moment (things could be very different in a couple of years), sticking to anything for 5 years is a bit silly. Well, that's pretty much it - if it was 1% and a one year deal, then I don't think many drivers would object judging by what I've heard and seen discussed. Of course, I expect the RMT would still be kicking up a fuss about it, but there you go. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out that if LU can get away with a 5 (or even 4) year deal, that takes them beyond the Olympics, and with all the kerfuffle going on with Jubbly ATO, new SSL trains and the rest, the chance of avoiding any industrial action during that period must be irresistible. You can't blame them for trying! . Equally, even without the current financial climate, no sensible union (let alone the one staff have got ;D) would go anywhere longer than a one-year deal. I cannot see anything being resolved unless LU drops the 5-year bit. Although action seems to be coming far too early, it's beginning to look inevitable because the principle is so important. As an amusing aside, Stagecoach West forced a 2 year pay deal on drivers last September - many drivers thought it was ridiculous the unions accepted. The deal? 4.7% for the current year and 4.5% for next year!! Who's looking silly now??
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2009 17:47:34 GMT
It would appear next week's industrial action is set in stone, if the TFL website is to be believed.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2009 18:36:52 GMT
Nothing is set in stone - wouldn't take too much on either side to call it off.
But then we'll see if BOTH parties are interested in reality or playing political games.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2009 22:25:46 GMT
I agree with the fact that some members of the management at TFL etc need to have some sense banged into them, i dont agree a strike is neccessary at this time and just like what has haoppened in Bristol with the bin men, the public are going to turn on the RMT & LUL staff even if they are not striking.
i am glad to be going to london on monday, but i know of few freinds who drive coaches for veolia who are going to suffer now as they got to take 3 coaches full of people up to london and if they cant get a tube train to get anywhere then there is going to be trouble.
Also whilst i agree that protecting jobs is neccessary i really am getting sick to death of the RMT union (The leaders) calling strikes.
i know of some people who work for arriva trains wales who share my views and who have refused to join the RMT.
I am not criticising people before anyone sends me a very angree message ( which has happened on another forum) i just wish the management on both sides will realise that by striking the london economy is going to suffer as a result of the disruption
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Post by metman on Jun 9, 2009 7:18:01 GMT
So is the strike still on today? What time are the late shift of opertators likely to not book on?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2009 7:48:48 GMT
Yes. RMT members will not book on for duties starting from 7pm onwards.
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