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Post by antharro on May 5, 2009 7:18:42 GMT
Not a moan about the service this time, a question about these buses. I've been on them when they've been fine, and other times when the auto box can't make up its mind what gear it wants to be in, and other times when (like today) the driver has his foot down a bit and the box occasionally over-revs between gears & takes its time to change.
All of which are traits that occur on high mileage / heavy useage gearboxes. But, I'm wondering why, on a majority of these buses, the engines sound really rough and loud when accelerating from standing or rolling, but once reaching a particular speed really quiten down and become quite smooth. Don't quite purr but do become less "no oil!!!" sounding.
The one I'm on now is occasionally overevving, and there is a difference in engine tone, but it's overall a lot smoother and quieter than any other I've been on. (Y849TGH). Why?
-Anth
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SE13
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Post by SE13 on May 5, 2009 8:30:14 GMT
We have two of these in our fleet, (Stagecoach 33848 and 33849) and to be honest, they are sheds to drive!
The engine noise comes mainly from having to floor the things just to get them to move! Once the desired speed is reached, we ease off the power, thus the lower engine noise. Gentle acceleration is where they keep dropping up and down the gears, especially on a bit of a slope.
I don't know about those on the C10 route, but ours have really powerful retarders which accounts for the jerk when first braking, and they always seem to violently drop down a gear when slowing.
Our pair are regularly off the road with various problems engine related. It's always a pleasure seeing them in the workshop knowing that you won't have to drive one that day!
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Post by Colin on May 5, 2009 8:34:13 GMT
It may be that the buses are simply knackered, or it may be that some of the drivers are changing gear manually.
Last time I drove a bus the Darts were the step entrance version and, although they have automatic gear boxes it's quite possible to go through the gears manually - doing so means you can get a little bit more out of it before allowing it to change up to the next gear; that could well come across as over revving perhaps?
All that being said, Phil did mention to me fairly recently that newer buses do seem to suffer from poorly matched gear boxes & engines, and that no matter how hard the driver tries, some buses just won't settle down in any one gear.
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Post by SE13 on May 5, 2009 8:51:53 GMT
It may be that the buses are simply knackered, or it may be that some of the drivers are changing gear manually. Those we have are fitted with "Voith" gearboxes, and we can only select Drive, Neutral or Reverse. The older Darts in our fleet have the sticks where we can manually change, those from "X" plate (I think) were fitted with the push button style. All that being said, Phil did mention to me fairly recently that newer buses do seem to suffer from poorly matched gear boxes & engines, and that no matter how hard the driver tries, some buses just won't settle down in any one gear. Yep!
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2009 12:18:01 GMT
This seems to be an issue with Dennis Dart buses, it is particularly noteworthy on a lot of the older Marshall bodied ones (X/Y-regs) we have, though much less so the newer ones (02-regs) or Caetano (02-reg) ones.
I'm not sure what type of gearbox they have but i'm thinking it must be this and the fine settings that are the common factor rather than the bodywork manufacturer.
It is very difficult indeed to give a smooth ride when the bus is constantly changing up and down gear unable to decide which it wants to be in when proceeding at a constant rate of speed, the bus kicks with each change. Usually the only answer is to either go a bit slower or a bit faster (if that's safe).
The other week I had a very annoying vehicle which was speed limited to 29mph and which also was set to gear change (3rd to 4th) at 28/29mph, so was constantly "gear kicking" for the best part of the day. I booked it off, noted the number and will not be driving that one again unless it's sorted !!
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Post by Tomcakes on May 5, 2009 13:59:07 GMT
We have some similar vehicles in Donny - I think they're a minibus design which someone stretched! The engines are underpowered and the gearboxes ridiculous - you get thrown all over the place.
They've also got no side or back screens, rattle like hell and are covered with graffiti, but that's because they're "maintained" by First!
On the upside, Lothian recently got rid of some similar buses - they were new V reg, which to them is old!
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Post by antharro on May 5, 2009 15:17:14 GMT
Lothian buses seem to keep a modern fleet. I guess it helps keep the maintenance bill down.
The bus I singled out was definitely over-revving between gears; I caught it again about a hour ago and at one point there was a definite lurch as the gearbox picked a gear and dropped into it at high revs! I've noticed the hard downshifts occasionally, mostly when the driver has to brake HARD. Oddly enough I was on a 188 yesterday with a horrible downshift - really threw the passengers around!
The engine noise I mentioned is quite distinctive. It's not just a case of it being louder due to hard acceleration, although that does contribute. It's a really rough sound, as if the top half of the engine isn't getting enough oil and the exhaust isn't quite attached! But it quitens down once the bus gets to a certain speed. It's almost as if it's swiching cams but I suspect that's far too complicted an explanation, especially for a bus diesel engine!
I'm currently on an older C10 bus; P504RYM which as well as having a nicer decor (imo! - green grab rails instead of yellow, grey panelling) seems to be performing perfectly. No lurches, hard downshifts, relatively quiet engine. So something went wrong with the newer ones! I don't recall being on a 02/52 plate C10 so can't comment there.
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Post by SE13 on May 5, 2009 15:37:26 GMT
The yellow grab rails have been introduced to assist the blind. Apparently one of the last colours they can still see is yellow, although these are fast getting re-coated with orange to cut down the "glare" but still contain yellow.
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Post by antharro on May 6, 2009 15:48:48 GMT
Shame, I really prefer the green/grey colour scheme, but if there's good reason for the yellow then so be it.
Today, Y847TGH is exhibiting the two-tone engine sound I referred to. If I had thought about it, I would've sat in the back to get a sound bite. Perhaps next time. Would be nice to know why.
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Post by Chris M on May 6, 2009 16:16:30 GMT
The yellow grab rails have been introduced to assist the blind. Apparently one of the last colours they can still see is yellow, although these are fast getting re-coated with orange to cut down the "glare" but still contain yellow. I thought that the key thing wasn't the colour, but the contrast with the background - yellow being a good contrast with dark backgrounds. I can't from memory remember the colour of the grab poles on the S stock mockup, but I do remember the ones on the 09 stock mockup were corporate blue with the horizontal ones Vic line blue.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2009 17:52:41 GMT
I can't from memory remember the colour of the grab poles on the S stock mockup Yellow!
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Post by SE13 on May 6, 2009 19:06:15 GMT
Actually, it's a point maybe worth raising with prjb. I'm fairly sure he would know the definitive answer.
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Post by Tomcakes on May 6, 2009 21:04:11 GMT
I don't know about rail vehicles, but road vehicles don't have to be yellow - look, for example here - and Firstbus use that sickly turquoise thing.
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Post by rrbs on May 7, 2009 15:27:12 GMT
I don't know the answer but suspect I know the problem you are referring to, Darts which seem to jam between gears and lurch, sounding like they are about to die, for 4 or 5 seconds. Noticed it on First's Marshall Darts and also driving 52 plate Plaxton Darts. Didn't really mind driving the Dart though, once you eget used to the foibles. Think it was an Allison gearbox with a stick gear rather than ZF-style push button (which I would prefer).
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Post by SE13 on May 7, 2009 16:47:56 GMT
I don't know about rail vehicles, but road vehicles don't have to be yellow - look, for example here - and Firstbus use that sickly turquoise thing. I don't think it's so much compulsory as a Stagecoach preference. But I got the idea that there was to be something in law about it when buses are finally converted to all being SLF. I think it's another 2 years for single deckers, and 2017 before all deckers are converted. (And I reckon our 1989 Volvo deckers will still be running then, outliving the 2007 Enviro deckers!)
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2009 10:17:34 GMT
It is very difficult indeed to give a smooth ride when the bus is constantly changing up and down gear unable to decide which it wants to be in when proceeding at a constant rate of speed, the bus kicks with each change. Usually the only answer is to either go a bit slower or a bit faster (if that's safe). Especially if you dont stop at West Harrow!
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Post by carlovel1 on May 9, 2009 21:00:09 GMT
I don't know about rail vehicles, but road vehicles don't have to be yellow - look, for example here - and Firstbus use that sickly turquoise thing. You mean this photo
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Post by SE13 on May 15, 2009 17:17:38 GMT
Ha! I was supposed to have one of these today, but nobody could start it!
Flip side, the bus I got in it's place broke down on my first run......
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Post by SE13 on May 16, 2009 17:42:10 GMT
Double bonus, I was due one this afternoon, and it broke down this morning, so I got a short Dart instead. Fantastic!
Does beg a question..... Why are the same buses repeatedly off the road for one thing or another? Those two (33848/33849) are forever getting towed back, as are the Leyland deckers (14992-9).... Has nobody clicked that it costs more to get the recovery team out on a daily basis for at least four of these buses, the two 33's and 14997 plus either 14996 or 14999 than they can possibly take in fares. Stagecoach Lincoln haven't got a recovery vehicle, so it goes out to private, costing I don't know how much every tow back.
Of course, I'm just a driver, why should my point count, especially when the depot is constantly paying for these breakdowns and having a direct impact on my payrise (or lack of)
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Post by prjb on May 18, 2009 20:38:45 GMT
Actually, it's a point maybe worth raising with prjb. I'm fairly sure he would know the definitive answer. Essentially it is not the colour but more the contrast between colours that is important. Taking the 09ts as an example it has a mix of corporate blue and Vic line blue which as luck would have it is a good mix of contrasting colours. On the 'S' we stuck with yellow as this contrasted well with our interior colour scheme and also meant we were consistent with today's SSR fleet.
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Post by Phil on May 18, 2009 21:42:15 GMT
costing I don't know how much every tow back. about £500 per time in our area...........................
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Post by Tomcakes on May 19, 2009 12:51:31 GMT
You'd not want to think how much it costs to have two contracted tow-trucks sitting in the city centre all day then - we have that at the moment, as any breakdown in the centre brings the city to a standstill (with the pointless tramworks at the moment, it's pretty bad anyway).
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Post by SE13 on May 19, 2009 19:19:10 GMT
Any bus breakdown here also grinds everything to a halt. The contracted recovery team can take anything up to FIVE hours to get out to us, I know from freezing experience! (They specialise in lorry recovery, so are always busy somewhere in this vast and rural County!)
As for the buses in question, I haven't (still) driven one since this thread was created, so I can't add further to it.
Thanks to prjb for popping in, that clears that one up, although as you are the person in the know, is it true to say that yellow is one of the last colours blind people can see (I appreciate what you say about the contrast) or is that a Company bigging themselves up for having the colour?
Nearly forgot, 33848 is apparently almost terminally dead, so knowing Lincoln depot, it'll be months before it's back. This pleases me greatly as I don't have to drive the shed.
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Post by Dmitri on May 19, 2009 20:18:19 GMT
Why are the same buses repeatedly off the road for one thing or another? They are unlucky... or simply run down... The contracted recovery team can take anything up to FIVE hours to get out to us, I know from freezing experience! Moscow bus (and trolleybus) depots have their own tow trucks, like that one.
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Post by Tomcakes on May 19, 2009 20:22:13 GMT
The UK standard was always to do that - m3group.fotopic.net/p54557518.html was an example. However, in recent years, the health & safety and insurance restrictions have lead to an increase in specialised contractors. (Duggy, pictured, was apparently known for being pushed through traffic lights by the bus it was towing).
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Post by SE13 on May 20, 2009 17:55:54 GMT
The contracted recovery team can take anything up to FIVE hours to get out to us, I know from freezing experience! Moscow bus (and trolleybus) depots have their own tow trucks, like that one. That's a beast and a half! I somehow doubt it would fit down the streets here, but it would be an eye-opener!
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Post by Phil on May 20, 2009 21:50:38 GMT
It doesn't have to be like that (or it didn't). Years ago I had a Bristol FLF (decker) with a burnt out clutch and they hauled it out of Stroud centre with a LAND ROVER!! Not fast but very effective.
Mind you depots don't even have one of these now - just a small Ford van with a bit of coolant and a bit of oil in it........
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Post by Tomcakes on May 20, 2009 23:06:29 GMT
It doesn't have to be like that (or it didn't). Years ago I had a Bristol FLF (decker) with a burnt out clutch and they hauled it out of Stroud centre with a LAND ROVER!! Not fast but very effective. Mind you depots don't even have one of these now - just a small Ford van with a bit of coolant and a bit of oil in it........ Together with a roll of gaffer tape and a bleddy big hammer!
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Post by Dmitri on May 21, 2009 14:41:24 GMT
That's a beast and a half! I somehow doubt it would fit down the streets here It is not very wide, it is more to the way the photo was taken (more contemporary example from Krasnodar is here). It doesn't have to be like that (or it didn't). Years ago I had a Bristol FLF (decker) with a burnt out clutch and they hauled it out of Stroud centre with a LAND ROVER!! Not fast but very effective. It sometimes has to tow a 20 odd ton bus over the slippery road, so additional power and grip is much appreciated .
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Post by SE13 on May 23, 2009 3:56:59 GMT
Mind you depots don't even have one of these now - just a small Ford van with a bit of coolant and a bit of oil in it........ That's all our depot has, a Transit Connect van with the above plus a few gallons of diesel. Those Leyland deckers are always running out of diesel! They did used to have a converted bus as a tow truck, but it caught fire and was scrapped.
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