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Strike
Apr 20, 2009 16:18:53 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2009 16:18:53 GMT
BBC Link (the picture is correct for once!)Surely the Victoria Line has run without CSDE for over 40 years - why has it become an issue now? And aren't the door controls on different sides of the cab? Surely if a guard can know which side they are meant to be on, an ATO driver can.
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Strike
Apr 20, 2009 16:43:33 GMT
Post by Tomcakes on Apr 20, 2009 16:43:33 GMT
Seems a bit stupid that they're suddenly starting harping on about this... not exactly going to win hearts and minds is it?
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Chris M
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Strike
Apr 20, 2009 17:14:59 GMT
Post by Chris M on Apr 20, 2009 17:14:59 GMT
I could understand it if the 67s had it and the 09s were not going to have it (or something that does the same job), but AIUI the situation is the exact opposite!
I am not aware that there is either a significant number of incidents of wrong-side door opening, or of there being a significantly larger numebr of such incidents on the Vic when compared to other lines that have CSDE.
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Strike
Apr 20, 2009 17:20:54 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2009 17:20:54 GMT
I could understand it if the 67s had it and the 09s were not going to have it (or something that does the same job), but AIUI the situation is the exact opposite! Aren't the 09ts having the facility to allow possible automatic door opening? The argument for not having CSDE was that almost all Vic line stations are on the same side of the train and that train ops won't have to drive the train manually with passengers on board very often.
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Ben
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Strike
Apr 20, 2009 17:25:23 GMT
Post by Ben on Apr 20, 2009 17:25:23 GMT
I would hazzard a guess that this is just the RMT trying to stick two fingers up to Borris. I think the RMT is harrassing and bullying its members into towing the party line, and I think any driver on the Vic who knows his onions must surely realise that things are about to change drastically for the Vic anyway? It doesnt make sense considering the past of the line, nor does it make sense considering the imminent future.
Further more, Bob Crow cant even pronounce 'Harassment' correctly in interviews, because he puts the emphasis on the second syllabul.
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Strike
Apr 20, 2009 19:45:31 GMT
Post by 100andthirty on Apr 20, 2009 19:45:31 GMT
the last time I looked, there were proportionately (eg wrong side door openings per million station stops) fewer wrong side door incidents on the Vic (without CSDE) than on any other line (with CSDE). Having the door buttons on the ledge under the side windows certainly helps.
However the numbers for all lines are tiny.
In case there's any doubt, the 2009 tube stock does have CSDE
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Strike
Apr 20, 2009 20:23:24 GMT
Post by astock5000 on Apr 20, 2009 20:23:24 GMT
That is only because this is to do with the Victoria line. The BBC always shows a 67TS!
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Strike
Apr 20, 2009 22:01:24 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2009 22:01:24 GMT
Trains still seem to be operating - at 5minute frequencies though. North of Seven Sisters the trains are more sparse.
Will the main knock on effects be felt tomorrow morning?
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Strike
Apr 20, 2009 22:10:04 GMT
Post by astock5000 on Apr 20, 2009 22:10:04 GMT
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Strike
Apr 20, 2009 22:21:09 GMT
Post by North End on Apr 20, 2009 22:21:09 GMT
I would hazzard a guess that this is just the RMT trying to stick two fingers up to Borris. I think the RMT is harrassing and bullying its members into towing the party line, and I think any driver on the Vic who knows his onions must surely realise that things are about to change drastically for the Vic anyway? It doesnt make sense considering the past of the line, nor does it make sense considering the imminent future. Further more, Bob Crow cant even pronounce 'Harassment' correctly in interviews, because he puts the emphasis on the second syllabul. Some thoughts on this: WSDOs are covered in LUL's rules training, and it's quite clear that if a WSDO happens at a tunnel station then the Controller and Supervisor must be informed immediately, and actions taken to ensure no passengers have fallen onto the track. Depending on the circumstances, one would expect traction current to be switched off, and the train detrained so that a visual check can be made on the non-platform side. If this doesn't happen, there's the risk of a passenger who has fallen out being either injured by the incident train departing, or a subsequent train. One wonders if there has been an incident where the correct procedures were not carried out. Obviously this would be very hard for the RMT to defend, so their next best option is to take a more general line. I'd say the risk of a WSDO on the Victoria Line is potentially quite high. It's easy for the driver to become distracted or go onto "auto pilot" for just a couple of seconds. There's also been at least one case where a driver has carried out his station operations quite correctly, then pressed the twin open buttons on the wrong side, when he meant to press the "start" buttons. The fact that the Victoria Line is often very crowded means the risk of people falling out as a result of a WSDO is comparatively greater. IMO the chances of 67ts getting fitted with CSDE in their final years of operation is precisely zero.
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Strike
Apr 20, 2009 22:27:16 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2009 22:27:16 GMT
That'll teach me to read it thoroughly ;D
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mrfs42
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Strike
Apr 20, 2009 22:48:07 GMT
Post by mrfs42 on Apr 20, 2009 22:48:07 GMT
I'd say the risk of a WSDO on the Victoria Line is actually quite high. It's easy for the driver to become distracted or go onto "auto pilot" for just a couple of seconds. I agree that the theoretical risk is higher, but as commented upthread by 100andthirty the actuality is in fact far less than CSDE enabled lines. Drivers or T/Ops going into 'autopilot' are some of the most difficult risks to quantify - look at the various 'ding ding and away' accidents on BR/NR - Bellgrove and Paisley Gilmour Street. Any risk analyst will tend to overestimate the unpredictable.
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Strike
Apr 20, 2009 22:51:29 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2009 22:51:29 GMT
The Victoria Line with ATO won't allow the 'ding ding and away' accidents though.
Wasn't the argument in the 1960s for OMO trains that the train operator had to have essentially the same skills as a guard - doors, defects and limited amounts of driving.
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mrfs42
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Strike
Apr 20, 2009 23:27:53 GMT
Post by mrfs42 on Apr 20, 2009 23:27:53 GMT
The Victoria Line with ATO won't allow the 'ding ding and away' accidents though. Of course not; I was drawing an analogy with hard-to-quantify risks rather than suggesting a ding-ding and away on the Vic.
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Phil
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Strike
Apr 21, 2009 21:43:09 GMT
Post by Phil on Apr 21, 2009 21:43:09 GMT
Seems a bit stupid that they're suddenly starting harping on about this... not exactly going to win hearts and minds is it? If I have read some of the union and other stuff correctly, it's not that the risk has changed, but what the company is now doing in terms of disciplinaries for those that transgress. As usual it's difficult for a neutral to assess between two totally opposite accounts, but it appears that what was once a 'slapped wrist' offence is getting mighty close to being sackable. On lines without CSDE there is (should be) no excuse, but on the Vic without CSDE a momentary error by a t/op could lead to him losing his job, and with no safety device to protect him. Hence the action on the Vic: of course there is no hope of getting CSDE on the 67s with the 09s almost here, but the union seems to be making a point about the disciplining rather than CSDE itself. At least that's the way it appears to me.......
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Colin
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Strike
Apr 22, 2009 0:11:23 GMT
Post by Colin on Apr 22, 2009 0:11:23 GMT
Without doubt tougher discipline (ie formal as opposed to a slapped wrist and a strong word in one's ear) is becoming much more widely used across the combine, and not just over CSDE but all manner of incidences. One point I would like to single out though Phil: On lines without CSDE there is (should be) no excuse, but on the Vic without CSDE a momentary error by a t/op could lead to him losing his job, and with no safety device to protect him. I take it the first bit should read "On lines with CSDE there is (should be) no excuse,"? Actually, even on lines with CSDE fitted, drivers are every bit as exposed as colleagues on the Vic - we can easily override the CSDE system and open up on either side. Given the low number of occurances on the Vic, I would argue that all drivers across the combine, CSDE fitted or not, are equally at risk.
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Strike
Apr 22, 2009 6:14:28 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2009 6:14:28 GMT
The issue is that on other lines if we try to open the doors on the wrong side normally they (should) fail to open. We have to make the deliberate action of cutting out the CSDE. The Vic is the only line without this. Therefore the same error made by a vic driver WILL result in the doors opening. On other stock it is only the driver who knows he attempted to do this as the doors will remain closed.
Yes the Vic has had this for 40 years. However LUL in its tougher line throughout the combine is apparently now throwing the book at drivers who do this. There should be more leeway, assuming they follow the correct procedure afterwards. As a correspndent above pointed out, what used to be a slap on the wrist is becoming a sackable offence.
Personally i'm not happy about the RMTs tactics of individual line disputes and the crying wolf by calling for action over every thing. As far as I can see it only weakens the unions position and pi$$es off the members. It also plays into the hands of LU, the press and rival unions.
That said, at least the union is attempting to stand up to the attacks on staff.
On the other side of the coin, ASLEF are VERY VERY quiet almost to the point of anonimity on pretty much everything recently. To be honest neither is an ideal position in my eyes.
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Strike
Apr 22, 2009 10:05:45 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2009 10:05:45 GMT
the last time I looked, there were proportionately (eg wrong side door openings per million station stops) fewer wrong side door incidents on the Vic (without CSDE) than on any other line (with CSDE). Having the door buttons on the ledge under the side windows certainly helps. However the numbers for all lines are tiny. In case there's any doubt, the 2009 tube stock does have CSDE I wonder if the reason for that is the Victoria Line trains make fewer station stops, owing to the distance between stations and the relatively short length of the line ? Without wishing to dispute the statistics, when I was an Instructor on the Victoria Line, a very large amount of my effort was devoted to emphasising to trainees which side the doors were on at the next station. I was very aware that there was a real unprotected risk that was very easy indeed to get wrong. I was aware of quite a few such incidents on the Victoria Line more than I heard of elsewhere, it didn't usually take long for such occurances to be reported round the staff room !
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Strike
Apr 22, 2009 12:08:58 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2009 12:08:58 GMT
Is it the Victoria Line that can run without drivers ? Why not just set the controls to automatic for the day and then without human intervention and error, the trains will run on time and the doors open on the right side. Simple ?
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Strike
Apr 22, 2009 12:52:42 GMT
Post by pakenhamtrain on Apr 22, 2009 12:52:42 GMT
Is it the Victoria Line that can run without drivers ? Why not just set the controls to automatic for the day and then without human intervention and error, the trains will run on time and the doors open on the right side. Simple ? It still requires the driver to push the start button and the doors.
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Colin
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Strike
Apr 22, 2009 14:31:30 GMT
Post by Colin on Apr 22, 2009 14:31:30 GMT
Is it the Victoria Line that can run without drivers ? All trains on LU need drivers - we ain't that technologically advanced yet!!
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Ben
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Strike
Apr 22, 2009 15:27:16 GMT
Post by Ben on Apr 22, 2009 15:27:16 GMT
I'm sure that others have commented on this forum that we are . It could always be set up so that the automatic part drives the train and opens the doors, with the driver closing them and starting the train. That would be a pointless excercise for a stock with months left though. So, if I've understood it correctly, this dispute isn't really about safety or even CSDE, but about heavyhanded reactions to mistakes made on a line where the equipment to prevent the driver making a mistake isnt installed? The union know they wont get CSDE untill the new stock, so until then the only practical solution is to give drivers some slack on the Vic? Sounds reasonable, but its morally questionable to use the safety excuse when it isnt so clear cut an issue. I also ask that if the latter agreement is made, then 5 years down the line when the Vic has 09 stock and CSDE, and through some odd circumstance a wrong side door incident happens and the driver is sacked, will the union then call another strike and claim it is justified according to an agreement made formerly?... Why is TfL trying to put the image across that it wealds a mighty sword in disciplin? Or are they confident enough in their staff uptake that they dont need to worry about keeping those in the loop there? How did this policy of a tough line come into being; was it gradual or was an executive decision made? What is TfLs true agenda...
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Strike
Apr 22, 2009 18:10:11 GMT
Post by 21146 on Apr 22, 2009 18:10:11 GMT
LU had to install CSDE on conventional lines after OPO from 1984 but why was this never needed on the Victoria Line from 1968? Maybe the rear bulkhead-mounted Allen West door 'tiller' controllers on 67TS were a factor, since the A/TOp had to turn sideways facing the platform (hopefully) to operate these. Most lowered the cab droplight as the train came to a halt once the speed was low enough to allow the interlock to drop out (I think), replicating the old "Guard's door open first" routine of conventional working. Now I presume most door opening is done facing forward from the T/Op's seat (which was also the problem on manual OPO lines). The Victoria Line had the senior, most experienced, drivers upon opening; instead of the exact opposite situation today. Train driving, especially on LUL, is a classic example of repetitive actions which after a period of time become almost semi-automatic, couple that with the Victoria Line's unique environment of all-tunnel and most stations almost identical in appearance, thus little visual stimulation, and you're asking for trouble. I know LU have tried to use new assessment techniques on recruitment for potential new drivers but wonder how effective these are? (I also wonder how many ex-MM or T/Op forum members would get through these now?) LU's safety culture is supposed to address risk by making it "as low as reasonably practicable". Wrong-side opening was identified as a problem, not least when a former senior manager opened the doors on the wrong side on the Met, CSDE was devised and rolled out across the rest of the network, and it was a dereliction of duty not to have included the 67TS in this programme. As regards the "bullying" angle I have no knowledge of this on the Vic, but clearly certain names continue to crop up in relation to disputes even when the person concerned has, in one case, been moved from trains to stations.
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mrfs42
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Strike
Apr 22, 2009 22:21:13 GMT
Post by mrfs42 on Apr 22, 2009 22:21:13 GMT
Perhaps the reason CSDE wasn't fitted on the Vic. was it could be overlaid on top of the Identra gubbins. Granted many more Identra transmitters would need to be fitted to the tunnels, but I can't immediately see a reason why the Identra system could not have been used in this way.
Bear in mind that the Vic. installation of Identra wasn't quite the full biz. IIRC that the Flushing Line on the Interboro' used it for route setting (as opposed to destination informing) at Queensboro Plaza. However, the Flushing Line has a smaller set of train ids than the Vic, so there would have been spare frequencies.
Unfortunately, I can't immediately check what the spare freqencies are (to prove my idle musings), but I have a suspicion that 80, 86 and 92 kHz are spare. I really must dig out my copy of the huge Vic. Line handbook. It's all academic anyway, as Identra is rather 'old hat' these days!
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Strike
Apr 23, 2009 19:59:33 GMT
Post by 21146 on Apr 23, 2009 19:59:33 GMT
Of course it's also fair to point out that Victoria Line drivers have a lot less chance of an attributable SPAD, though a greater risk of wrong side opening, than T/Ops on most other lines.
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