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Post by miztert on Feb 17, 2009 21:17:19 GMT
Bit of a disaster this morning on the Vic... More here: news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7894793.stmI'm guessing the water was either handed out on the platform or was brought along the track to the trains - an emergency supply isn't carried on trains is it? Anyone know any more about the signalling problems that led to this? |
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Post by astock5000 on Feb 17, 2009 21:20:51 GMT
The signalling problem was at Victoria, but I have no idea what the problem was. I saw a poster at Victoria today, apologising for the delays in the morning.
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Post by Tubeboy on Feb 17, 2009 21:37:35 GMT
VF21 [Starter at Victoria] on the S/B failed to clear, a release was taken on the signal, but it still failed to clear.
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Post by astock5000 on Feb 17, 2009 22:02:38 GMT
So why couldn't trains reverse in the SB platform at Victoria, instead of Warren Street?
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Post by ek583 on Feb 17, 2009 22:13:05 GMT
VF21 [Starter at Victoria] on the S/B failed to clear, a release was taken on the signal, but it still failed to clear. I don't know much details about the Victoria line's ATO system, but if the signal failed to clear, can the trains not run through it in restricted manual? |
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Feb 17, 2009 22:29:39 GMT
Depends on the nature of the failure: VF. 21 reads across 14 points (off the end of the SB platform and into the sidings or onto Pimlico) - if the problem involved the points as well as the signal then that would cause problems further back as VF. 21s full speed overlap starts on the Green Park side of Victoria crossover (near headway post 1022 [old VF 22] from memory, let alone the need to secure 14 points.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Feb 18, 2009 2:14:41 GMT
I'm guessing the water was either handed out on the platform or was brought along the track to the trains - an emergency supply isn't carried on trains is it? Nope, no water carried on trains - well, not drinking water anyway! ;D ;D Bottled water is stored at various strategic locations around the network, and if necessary, can be delivered to an incident by lorry either from a particular storage location or directly from a central source. I dunno where the nearest storage point is in the affected area, but it's a fair bet a lorry would have made a delivery. |
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Post by happybunny on Feb 18, 2009 4:17:49 GMT
I was thinking myself, why was the WHOLE Vic line shut down, just due to one signal failing ?? Maybe they just couldn't be bothered to try and run a service so thought 'sod it' until it was fixed !
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Post by happybunny on Feb 18, 2009 4:21:28 GMT
And that free water scheme ... what a joke that is. Once I was delayed for half an hour between between Barons Court and West Ken. When we got moving I got into the platform at Earls Court, of course now trains were blocking back from RMD / EAB to ECT EB. I got in and the signal cleared but a guy in a white shirt, told me I should make an announcement asking if anyone wanted free water... whilst this was sorted my train was further delayed in the platform for about 5 minutes, further delaying all the trains behind...  |
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Feb 18, 2009 4:41:40 GMT
I was thinking myself, why was the WHOLE Vic line shut down, just due to one signal failing ?? Maybe they just couldn't be bothered to try and run a service so thought 'sod it' until it was fixed ! What's said above implies the line was only suspended between Warren Street & Brixton, so not quite the whole line. The biggest problem with the Victoria line is that they have more trains in service than platforms - so as soon as you get a problem, you get trains stalled between platforms. I'm sure I don't need to explain to anyone the implications of that. Even if a shuttle is put in, as was evidently done yesterday morning; you have to strike a balance between providing a service with the available reversing points (I have no idea what the Vic's got), whilst being limited in the capacity of those reversing points and at the same time provide a service which is safe. Like I say, I don't know the Victoria line that well at all but there is absolutely no point in trying to run a service with, say, 25 trains if you only have 16 platforms and one of the reversing points is restricting the service to a ten minute frequency. When those in service control talk about the bigger picture, this is a prime example of finding that balance between running what they can, and running it safely. One final point - again not knowing the Victoria line I don't know if trains could have been run to Victoria and reversed, but consider this: - It was the morning peak
- Reversing at Victoria would severely limit the frequency of trains
- You are most likely going to need more trains than you have platforms because most Victoria line customers are going to/from Victoria
- Victoria station regularly has to introduce station control (by shutting off access via the gateline) because of overcrowding on the platforms during the morning peak
Would it have been safe to run a service reversing at Victoria during the morning peak? If I were the controller, I doubt I'd bother trying to find out. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2009 6:50:18 GMT
What's said above implies the line was only suspended between Warren Street & Brixton, so not quite the whole line. When I started my duty the line was already having some problems due to an earlier faulty train at Finsbury - I think that was at minor delays. From Arnos, I went up to Cockfosters then headed back west - by the time I was at Manor House the Victoria line was closed Warren St to Brixton (I think briefly before this it may have been Warren St to Victoria), with severe delays on the rest of the line. Finsbury Park, as one might imagine, was packed, with people standing right up to the platform edge to the point where I had to crawl in and out of the platform because of the number of overhanging limbs! By the time I neared Acton Town (late, because we had severe overcrowding between Finsbury and Kings Cross, which resulted in two PEA's at Kings X) I heard that the entire Victoria line was now being suspended. I was taken off my train at Acton for a reform and by the time I got on a new train and was toodling off towards Northfields, the Vic Line had resumed to severe delays. I don't know the reason for the full suspension (part of me wonders if it was just a case of "let's get everyone out, take a deep breath, then start again!) but it did happen at least for a short while - however, as the article states, the majority of the time the closure was Warren St - Brixton. |
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Post by memorex on Feb 18, 2009 22:07:41 GMT
(late, because we had severe overcrowding between Finsbury and Kings Cross, which resulted in two PEA's at Kings X) With regards to that, I was on the platform, my first day properly out and about on the station. Had got down to that platform to find no member of staff on the platform, me and the supervisor were there trying to deal with it. Went up to the headwall to find out what was going on with the train which had the first PEA, (driver originally told me it was overloaded, only then was a PEA activated), and because the entrance to the platform was so packed, I couldn't get back out from the gate so was stuck at the headwall! In the end there was that second PA where someone actually needed first aid so while a train was there I sorta pushed my way past people, myself fully leaning on the train (whilst stationary) on the wrong side of the yellow line to get down there. Wasn't quite expecting that, but I definitely prefer it when things go wrong to sitting around doing nothing! ;D |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2009 11:44:43 GMT
Why are some line suspensions reported in the news like this, and others not?
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Feb 21, 2009 12:01:15 GMT
Why are some line suspensions reported in the news like this, and others not? Depends on the mood of the reporters, how slow or fast a news day it is; there is no logic to it. |
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Feb 22, 2009 3:01:30 GMT
I forgot to add to this thread, but I shall now make amends - RE: why trains were reversed at Warren Street and not at Victoria.......
**info taken from the service managers report**
Signal VF21 (station starter?) failed to clear despite releases being taken.
There was a stalled train on the approach to Victoria which was worked under rule into the platform - I would assume points in the area would have been scotched & clipped to allow this, meaning it would not have then been possible to use the crossover which I presume is at the north end of the station (based on earlier posts in this thread).
So that's the first reason why trains were reversed at warren Street and not Victoria.
Further more, a stalled train was worked back to Green Park under the wrong direction movement procedure and another stalled train was worked forward into Green Park. Those procedures take time to complete and are not over & done with in 5 minutes.
So there's a couple more reasons for the Warren Street reversing instead of Victoria.
Coupled with what I said in reply #9 above, I hope that completes the picture on why the failure was managed in the way it was on the day.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Feb 22, 2009 10:02:17 GMT
The advantage of No. 15 crossover is that you can 'route prove' over it - in theory. In practice, route proving is too much of a PITA to put in that it's rarely used.
In order for reversing at Victoria to work, you really need to introduce stepping back, as the crowds are so huge it's very difficult to chang ends quickly. Unfortunately the RCC equipment at Victoria was (officially) decommissioned some time in the '70s...
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Feb 25, 2009 9:59:25 GMT
RCC?
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Post by programmes1 on Feb 25, 2009 10:05:16 GMT
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Post by Chris M on Feb 26, 2009 9:12:38 GMT
cheers
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