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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2009 15:05:20 GMT
Hi All, Just a couple of things I want to ask to get the correct sounds for our Rail Simulator Standard stock. What was the maximum speed of this stock without using weak field and would anybody know roughly how fast the accelerating relay would switch when there was low current demand flowing through the motors i.e throttle from idle to parallel when doing about 30mph. I'm thinking I may need to take an educated guess on this. Thanks. Darren.
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Post by tubeprune on Jan 30, 2009 20:12:36 GMT
I will try to find a curve for a WT54 motor. Maybe there is one somewhere. They were certainly slower to accelerate than 38TS.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2009 20:52:39 GMT
Thanks for that Tubeprune. I'm reading Mr Agnews Electric Trains Vol 1 on this at the moment and just trying to get my head around the contactor sequencing. This book is one of the best purchases I've ever made. Thanks for the recommendation.
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Jan 31, 2009 0:04:35 GMT
When the 38TS was first introduced on the Piccadilly they had to be derated as they were catching up the standards causing delays,don't forget on a standard only the leading truck on a motor actually was motored.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Jan 31, 2009 0:40:58 GMT
Were both axels of the motor bogie motored? I can't remember off the top of my head.
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Jan 31, 2009 3:17:32 GMT
I believe the two wheels at the driver's end were motored as the wheels were much larger than the trailing end.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2009 9:07:06 GMT
Yes, both axles on the drivers end bogie were motored but the accelerating relay coil was only in circuit with one. This wasn't a problem when the motors were running in series and the resistances were stepped out one at a time. There were six resistance steps with the last two being cut out simultaneously. However, in parallel when the first resistance was cut out this was not in the motor circuit with the accelerating relay. As a result the accelerating relay switched over almost instantaneously cutting out a further resistance in it's motor circuit. This meant there were only three stages of resistances to cut out in parallel compared to five in series.
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Post by tubeprune on Jan 31, 2009 10:11:51 GMT
Yes, both axles on the drivers end bogie were motored but the accelerating relay coil was only in circuit with one. This wasn't a problem when the motors were running in series and the resistances were stepped out one at a time. There were six resistance steps with the last two being cut out simultaneously. However, in parallel when the first resistance was cut out this was not in the motor circuit with the accelerating relay. As a result the accelerating relay switched over almost instantaneously cutting out a further resistance in it's motor circuit. This meant there were only three stages of resistances to cut out in parallel compared to five in series. Sorry cd but this doesn't agree with my reading of the contactor sequence chart (diagram opposite p.98). The pattern of resistance cut out is identical for series and parallel operation. M2 is closed in the parallel sequence so the accelerating relay coil is in series with No 2 motor all through the parallel sequence. Incidentally, I remember the sound of Standard Stock contactors as a "clack" for each step. There was "double clack" for transition.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2009 11:34:25 GMT
Ah! You are quite correct in the sequence of contactors dropping out TP but my understanding is the speed in which they dropped out the resistances in parallel is quite different to how they dropped the resistances out in series. In series they were dropped at an equal rate, in parallel one would drop out first on motor 1 closely followed by motor 2. In essence I would of thought motoring up in series you would have heard an even number of single clacks upto five on acceleration, a doulble clack for transistion, but once in parallel there would have been a double clack (one for each motor) for each resistance cutout upto two (RR1+R1, RR2+R2).With RR3+R3 comming in together this would sound like one single clack before full parallel . Page 115, steps 9 and 10, second paragraph.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2009 15:43:52 GMT
TP do you know roughly at what speed transition took place. Thanks. Darren.
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Post by tubeprune on Feb 3, 2009 14:18:02 GMT
TP do you know roughly at what speed transition took place. Not really sure. We had no speedos on the trains. I would guess it would be around 15 mph.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2009 20:59:43 GMT
Thanks TP. I had no idea it was that slow. At the moment I've programmed it for about 23mph. Big mistake. I've got shunt upto 10mph, transition at 23mph and full speed at about 42mph. Can you correct these figures for me to the best of your knowledge. Thanks. Darren.
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Post by tubeprune on Feb 6, 2009 19:26:56 GMT
Sorry, can't do any better than that. However, if you left the handle in series, it might build up to 20ish. I was thinking more of a stright run up to full parallel. Once all the resistance is cut out the motor still accelerates.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Feb 7, 2009 15:08:34 GMT
Did the have speedos when on the Island Line?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2009 8:03:36 GMT
Thanks TP, I noticed that the Standard Stock DM's were labelled A and B end and only the very last of the Standard Stock was labelled A and D. Do you know when this happened and what was the reason behind the labelling change. Darren.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Feb 13, 2009 14:16:42 GMT
It was changed to conform with the axle letters, the A end having the 'A' axel nearest. It came about with the experimental 1935 tube stock, and was thereafter applied to all existing stock.
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Post by tubeprune on Feb 13, 2009 16:29:22 GMT
The "A" and "D" indentification system was first introduced by an "Instruction to Shops" issued to the workshops at Acton Works in March 1932 where axles were to be lettered A, B, C and D, west to east or north to south. As Ben says, A car with the cab at the "A" axle end was an "A" car, a car with the cab at the "D" axle end became a "D" car. The north side of the train was the No 1 side and the south side No 2. Thus a wheel would be, say A1, or C2. A double-blocked A1 wheel would have one brake block called A1A and the other block A1D. No one has come up with a better identification system and it survives to this day.
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Feb 13, 2009 19:40:21 GMT
Although in practice inner blocks were called 3 & 4,at least on the Central they were.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2009 19:46:43 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2009 8:27:28 GMT
I've just came across another abnormality. It seems the Standard Stock shunt field came in automatically at the top end of parallel motoring wether you wanted it or not. There's no mention of a flag switch on the schematics but I swear I've seen pictures with it raised. Can anyone shed any light on this. Darren.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Mar 5, 2009 9:52:14 GMT
I've seen pics of the weak field raised aswell. A small thing on a long arm, offside cab window, yellow and black lines on it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2009 10:15:15 GMT
Yep, that's the one but I cannot find it on any of the ciruit diagrams for the G.E.C, M.V or B.T.H controlled equipment.
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Post by max on Mar 5, 2009 11:18:24 GMT
Wasn't it a new feature introduced on the 1931 (or 1934?) stock then retrofitted?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2009 11:45:24 GMT
W A Agnews 'Electric Trains' book is dated 1937 and there is no mention of it in the text or in the schematic diagrams.
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Post by auxsetreq on Mar 5, 2009 12:16:58 GMT
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Post by tubeprune on Mar 5, 2009 16:37:43 GMT
The flag switch mod went in during the 1938-40 modernisation programmme for the Standard Stock. There were two stages of field weakening. IIRC the flag switch brought in the second stage.
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metman
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Post by metman on Mar 5, 2009 22:52:45 GMT
The Piccadilly extension stock did indeed have a week field flag and the rest was retrofitted to the 1923-27 stock on the Central for the long runs into Essex. When was the 1927-29 stock on the Picc retrofitted with field flags (at the same time as the older trains?) as they wouldn't have kept up with the 31-34 batch? The 1931/4 DM looks great as does the 1925 control trailer, remember the later control trailers (1927-9) had marker light boxes rather than the shutters. Great job keep it up!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2009 9:54:04 GMT
Thanks TP/metman
Metman, are you saying that the Piccadilly extension stock was actually delivered with a weak field flag fitted. As I understand it, no Standard Stocks were originally fitted with a weak field flag switch as new.
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metman
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Post by metman on Mar 6, 2009 17:15:54 GMT
I read in one book that the new picc stock was designed for 50mph running and had a weak field. This source could have been incorrect, I've been routing through my Tube stock Underground File to find out. There is a picture of a UCC car with a field flag up (and ep brake sticker) on the Bakerloo at Wembley Park with a 1904 Met saloon stock train on the other platform so it must have been around 19381
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2009 22:26:47 GMT
The picc stock was designed for weak field running but I don't think it was selectable. There was no weak field flag switch and the weak field came in automatically at the end of full parallel untill the mods in 1938. TP What do you mean by two stages of field weakening. I can only see one. Darren.
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