GB9 - Gunnersbury

Colin, this got my brain cells recalling! I was around when those signals were put in (or their colour-light predcecessors)...late March 1980 was it? They replaced the last semaphores on the Richmond branch. Work started on the Friday, and as I was working I missed photographing the old signals' removal...they were on the ground when I went from Gunnersbury to Richmond. I am certain that up until then there was no wrong-road starter semaphore. Trains were reversing that weekend I seem to recall from the WB/Down, but were hand-signalled. It was interesting to note that there was a colour-light wrong-road starter going in. All that was previously controlled from Gunnersbury 'box, and then shifted to Richmond of course.

Up until yesterday, it has always gone from Red to Yellow, and there's always been a train ahead when it does so (otherwise it's always been Green (ie, no train ahead) and is indicated as being so on the post with GB3 (it has it's own repeater) - I've never seen it go straight to Green from Red before.

That's the main reason why I've re-raised this signal - very strange behaviour!

Surely if the signaller has some form of control over it, it ought to be plated as a semi?

Hmmm.......interesting......

No; if the level of control is an emergency replacement switch, then the signal remains plated as an auto' (as that is the 'usual' method of working).

I can think of several installlations, most particularly the Caley main line north from Gretna to Carstairs, which has loooooooooong stretches of auto' signals on plain line [1]. IIRC that emergency replacement switches are on every fifth signal in either direction; and I'm pretty sure that this was the installation that set the 'norm' for signals with these switches retaining the 'auto' plates; signals that functioned automatically, but were replaced to danger by the operating of a local groundframe - emergency crossovers like the now infamous Lambrigg - had the same style of plate as an auto, but with the word 'SEMI' over the black bar. Look at figures 9.26 and 9.27 from the good offices of SDL; this page also gives an explanation of the 'minutes plate' at 9.34.

What I can't work out for sure is if the signalbox at Richmond uses this emergency replacement switch to hold GB9 for reversing moves. Have you or anyone else come in for a reverse and GB9 has been shewing a green?

I still consider that GB9 is approach released (which ties in with the signalling system sorting out which direction trains will go from Gunnersbury), and both you and chrish managed to trundle into the clearing section with nothing in front of you until at least GB13.

[1] 'back in the day' when you could still smoke on the trains, it was quite pleasant if I'd caught the overnight sleeper from Glasgow south, having a tab in the Mk 3 vestibule - poking my head out of the droplight and watching anything up to 5 separate signals clearing in front of the train - more often than not if these signals read into a controlled route (like GB17) you would only see a momentary 'blip' of the first, then the second yellow before the signal went to green. Occasionally I could see this over four signal sections - each signal a register behind the other until they had all reached green.

I was once held at GB9 and when I got onto the phone to the signaller, he said something along the lines "Oh, sorry - forgot about you" and cleared it straight to green. That was a couple of years ago now.

I've asked on a more signalling-related forum about GB9, and the answers are here. There is a germane comment about 'selective auto' working (which confirms my thoughts about GB9 being able to be 'fleeted').

Thanks, HB - that confims the last part of the jigsaw! You little star. ;D ;D ;D

For the record Richmond has 3 emergency replacement buttons on the panel. These are for GB9 (Gunnersbury Down Starter), GB12 (Kew Gardens Up Starter) and GB16 the 1st up line signal after leaving Richmond. GB16 is replaceable to provide a limit to shunting before returning into the platform from GB53. GB9 & 12 have a more interesting need as they protect the river bridge and in the event of a water borne bridge bash they are used to stop trains approaching the bridge. GB9 would also be replaced for a reversing movement. There is no requirement for semi to be added to the plate as this would only apply to signals protecting ground frames controlling points or swing bridges and these would be replaced by the release. All new signalling installations are provided with emergency replacement buttons at all automatic signals and the use of semi automatic plates are unlikely as signals will now be plated as controlled even though they are automatic in operation. The means of operation is irrelevant to the t/op as the plate denoting auto, semi or controlled is all that is required for them to apply the correct rules.

The other day, I rolled up to GB1 and waited for it to clear, slowly got my hi-vi on, made a rambling PA, climbed out of the cab watching the stick all the way and 'eventually' had to pick up the phone.

As soon as I picked the phone up, the stick cleared to yellow and then within, literally, seconds to green.

I spoke to the signaller and he said - along the lines - that I hadn't shown up on his circuit diagram and he assumed I was still at Turnham G.

Unusually for a signaller/controller, he was very pleasant and full of apologies. ;D ;D ;D

Yes.

We are supposed to inform the controller when we leave the cab, and can ask for traction current to be switched off, but in reality only the pedantic or those that can't trust themselves will do so (call the controller first that is).

I once sat at GB9 at danger and eventually got onto the signal phone, to a very narked signaller who told me I was supposed to be reversing at Gunnersbury and hadn't I been told ! No, was the answer! I proceeded to change the train display to an "Upminster" and change ends, whilst the signaller gave the LUL controller a rant .... I was then called up and told it was a mistake and the train behind was reversing there !
So I had to then change the display again and exchange passenger load again !!!

I have reversed there once, but only when i was a trainee !!!

On a related theme, I gather from assorted persons, that it is perfectly possible at various locations to clear a green signal at both ends of the same platform. ie. it is not necessarilly the case that a starter will be held at red, when a train is reversing at that location. Can anyone say with any certainty where this is possible ?

Harrow On The Hill Platforms 2, 5 & 6.
Liverpool Street Outer Rail platform is another place but in this case one of the signals is an automatic.

Isn't that because you need to pull up past the EB starter to get clear of No 12 xover and allow the route WB to be set? Do you remember the Picc guy who went along the EB back towards Barons Court?

Indeed you do have to pull up to the R mark at West Ken. But wouldn't this mean that the signal at the west end would still be red until you pulled up to the R board, by which time the signal at the east end would be red? I've never actually done the move, although there is one train early morning from Ealing Common that does (empty).

IIRC, that is a Barking night turn.