Ben
fotopic... whats that?
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Post by Ben on Dec 9, 2008 2:25:13 GMT
At the crossover, yes, elsewhere they had been put out, it was determined.
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Post by norfolkdave on Dec 9, 2008 16:32:00 GMT
I think it took a certain amount of "b*alls" for a junior Guard to "pull down" an experienced Motorman in those days, you tended to defer to their judgement. I get the same impression - whereas today (if guards existed) I'm sure there would be all sorts of safeguards and things would be very different (being more 'safety conscious') - things were, inherently, different then. The supervisor likened it to how some people react to strobe lights,as a form of epilepsy,and suggested that perhaps the Moorgate crash could have been caused by a similar occurrence. I recall reading something similar - weren't the tunnel lights on? IMHO, this is the more likely explanation, although it is unlikely that certainty will be reached. I used to be safey concience in my days as a guard and I would pull my motorman up no problem. Being ASLEF I took pride in being a guard and have worked to rule before. I used to note signal failures and the driver wouldnt pass an automatic until I got the number and time. Yes safety I felt was important. The only time I looked for papers was when the train was in the station and secure......Tunnel lights at Moorgate at the points were always on I believe, but I dont believe these were the cause.
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Colin
Advisor
My preserved fire engine!
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Post by Colin on Dec 9, 2008 17:18:54 GMT
Even today tunnel lights are on where there are points. The supervisor likened it to how some people react to strobe lights,as a form of epilepsy,and suggested that perhaps the Moorgate crash could have been caused by a similar occurrence. During my training for first aid at work (which was some years ago now as LU don't offer the course to drivers), we looked at all forms of seizure - there is indeed one where a person becomes completely motionless....AFAIR though, it doesn't last for long and despite the fact that I really do think this is the most plausible explanation, I would have thought [assuming this happened] Newson would have come round in time to react to the situation. Of course medicals for drivers are very thorough these days......what was involved in medicals for drivers back then, assuming they were done?
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Post by norfolkdave on Dec 9, 2008 17:34:29 GMT
Even today tunnel lights are on where there are points. The supervisor likened it to how some people react to strobe lights,as a form of epilepsy,and suggested that perhaps the Moorgate crash could have been caused by a similar occurrence. During my training for first aid at work (which was some years ago now as LU don't offer the course to drivers), we looked at all forms of seizure - there is indeed one where a person becomes completely motionless....AFAIR though, it doesn't last for long and despite the fact that I really do think this is the most plausible explanation, I would have thought [assuming this happened] Newson would have come round in time to react to the situation. Of course medicals for drivers are very thorough these days......what was involved in medicals for drivers back then, assuming they were done? Well medicals for guards was a strip down job and cough at the end of the day, nothing really stronger than that except you had if memory serves me was an eyesight test and an injection I think, and I think that was about it, I dont think when you went from Guard to motorman you were ever tested again. But even with a medical one can still have a seizure or heart attack, I dont think medicals would have saved the driver, I still say the guard had he had been alert should have pulled him down, there still would have been an accident for metal on metal downhill is like a bobsleigh on ice. The accident though wouldnt have been so messy, I could be wrong.
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Post by angelislington on Dec 11, 2008 23:49:04 GMT
The only time I looked for papers was when the train was in the station and secure...... Please, what is 'looking for papers'?
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Post by superteacher on Dec 13, 2008 3:47:05 GMT
The only time I looked for papers was when the train was in the station and secure...... Please, what is 'looking for papers'? Basically, it means that the guard was looking for a newspaper left behind by a passenger, so that he could read it at the terminus, or during a relief. It was more difficult finding newspapers back then than it is now - no freebie newspapers!
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Post by tubeprune on Dec 13, 2008 11:23:04 GMT
Some of the breakdown gang at Hainault were there,said it wasn't nice esp after 2 to 3 days.Wasn't Gordon Hafter the guy who actually got to the cab,or what was left of it ,to check the state of the controls? Indeed he did. He described it to me in detail. Suffice to say at this point that he wanted to know if the driver had tried to stop. He didn't. I was working at the RTC in the Rolling Stock Engineer's department then. Gordon came to the school with a box of letters. He asked me to examine all the theories relating to brake failures on 38TS submitted by staff and the public. We tried all the sensible ones but none of them explained the fact that the driver never tried to protect himself and never tried to stop the train. My own belief (which I've mentioned before) is that he ran out of railway. He was probably day dreaming (as you do) and forgot where he was. He got partway down the platform, realised he wasn't going to stop and decided to carry on to the next station. Trouble was, there wasn't one. It happened to me more than once and I will never forget that it could have been me there.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2008 15:15:52 GMT
I tend to agree that this ghastly, dreadful accident would have happened sooner or later. Perhaps on an even busier part of the system, goodness forbid. The dark irony with these type of disasters is that future safety-measures only came into being on the back of them once they'd happened. It's a bit lije the Titanic: it was only after that disaster that all ships were fitted with sufficient lifeboats and watertight compartments that reached the top of the decks. History and fate give us truly awful ways of learning lessons.
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Post by superteacher on Dec 13, 2008 19:50:28 GMT
Some of the breakdown gang at Hainault were there,said it wasn't nice esp after 2 to 3 days.Wasn't Gordon Hafter the guy who actually got to the cab,or what was left of it ,to check the state of the controls? Indeed he did. He described it to me in detail. Suffice to say at this point that he wanted to know if the driver had tried to stop. He didn't. I was working at the RTC in the Rolling Stock Engineer's department then. Gordon came to the school with a box of letters. He asked me to examine all the theories relating to brake failures on 38TS submitted by staff and the public. We tried all the sensible ones but none of them explained the fact that the driver never tried to protect himself and never tried to stop the train. My own belief (which I've mentioned before) is that he ran out of railway. He was probably day dreaming (as you do) and forgot where he was. He got partway down the platform, realised he wasn't going to stop and decided to carry on to the next station. Trouble was, there wasn't one. It happened to me more than once and I will never forget that it could have been me there. Surely though, if he was aware of the need to carry on past the station, he would have seen the dead end wall at some point before he hit it, and therefore made some attempt to stop?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2008 10:52:36 GMT
I was on the train behind the fateful one.
This was during the period that I had more or less lost interest in the Underground after I first became interested around 1966/7. (My interest was re-aroused at the beginning of 1978, and have been a LURS member consecutively since, living outside the UK since 1982).
I happened to be late that particular day, and should have been in my usual place in the back section of the first (leading carriage), to enable a quick get out up the escalators at Moorgate, having traveled from Oakwood, via Finsbury Park (Victoria) and Highbury & Islington.
What I do remember (as I had a number of cab rides in the late 60's on the Northern City and knew the line well) was that we stopped short of the crossover on the approach to Moorgate, and stood there for a long time. (can't remember exactly how long). At a later stage the lighting went off, and afterwards we were all detrained and led slowly over the crossover. I remember at the time seeing the train, it seemed strange that it was a long way down the platform.
We were walked into platform 10 (I think) with instructions to walk straight up the platform, and up the escalators.
I, being inquisitive, wandered through one of the cross passages and saw the train, not fully realizing at that moment the full extent of the disaster. I saw a lot of staff/emergency personnel around the tunnel mouth, the doors of the cars in the platform were all open, and there was a lot of sand on the platform, having been thrown up from the train mounting the sand drag. From what I was able to take in, the coaches seemed jack-knifed into the roof of the tunnel.
I was quickly ushered back to the other platform, up the escalators, and continued my journey to work in Liverpool Street.
It was only later, when the full extent of the disaster began to be known, I started to feel the shock of it all and went home early.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2009 23:45:14 GMT
One of the pictures quite clearly shows Charlie Cope, Chief Operating Manager, in the background. Anyone remember him? Charlie was before my time, I do remember his brother John Cope, tbh he was always a bit miserable.
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Post by tubeprune on Jan 2, 2009 11:20:24 GMT
One of the pictures quite clearly shows Charlie Cope, Chief Operating Manager, in the background. Anyone remember him? Charlie was before my time, I do remember his brother John Cope, tbh he was always a bit miserable. I knew John senior too. His son, also John, is now a Railway Inspector with HMRI and one of the nicest people I know.
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Post by 21146 on Feb 27, 2009 19:52:42 GMT
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2009 0:59:32 GMT
I used to have that now dated look of wearing my shirt collar over my jacket Don't recognise the faces though.
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