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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2008 15:35:36 GMT
Hi Time for one of my usual inane questions... I have a number of the above publications. In the first section on ballast train working the make up of each individual train is detailed. As the notices I am looking at are dated December 1961 there are trains that are described as being hauled by an 'engine'. As battery cars are described as such and there are also 'motor cars' - assume these are ballast motor/pilots, would I be correct in assuming that 'engine' refers to a steam loco rather than an electric loco?
One interesting working booked for Sun night December 31st 1961 at Baker Street involved an engine, brake van, wagons and brake van. The train left Neasden at 0110 and arrived in Baker Street plat 3 where the loco ran round. The wagons were then uncoupled from the brake van and the engine shunted its brake van to no 1 road and stabled it. The engine then proceeded to Chiltern Court siding and attached to two wagons stabled there and returned to no 1 road where the wagons were uncoupled and stabled with the brake van. Engine went back to no 3 platform, coupled to wagons left there on arrival and then shunted whole to Chiltern Court siding where the wagons were uncoupled and stabled. On completion the engine then ran to no 1 road, couple to wagons (previously removed from Chiltern Court sdg) and brake van stabled there and returned to Neasden. What is interested about this is the use of Chiltern Court siding for what I assume is for stabling engineer's wagons - outside of its usual rubbish/coal role. I am assuming that this is not a working to service Chiltern Court as that was timetabled in the WTT and used BoBo electric locos...
Time to search out some more of these ballast train supplements- I don't think Kew Nat Archives have any but am sure the LT Museum library does - I shall have to check with them..
(Little note to MRFS- thanks for your email ages ago and apologies for not yet replying- I haven't forgotten and aim to reply to you in the next couple of days in response to your kind offer)
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on Sept 2, 2008 16:09:03 GMT
I can imagine that they would have referred to the ex-GWR Pannier Tanks as the Peckett Saddle Tanks had apparently gone by then. Very interesting reference.
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Sept 2, 2008 16:26:31 GMT
I am assuming that this is not a working to service Chiltern Court as that was timetabled in the WTT and used BoBo electric locos... Indeed - as you well know, they're headed 'Chiltern Court Goods'. It depends what was going on at Baker Street at this time - I've got a feeling there was some work to do with moving overlaps and resiting signals being done around this time - the engineers wagons *could* have been stabled there for the stowage of recovered materials. Time to search out some more of these ballast train supplements- I don't think Kew Nat Archives have any but am sure the LT Museum library does - I shall have to check with them.. I've got a few I think; but this might be in the generic 'old traffic circular and other bits and bobs' pile. I'll interrogate the database when I get home. (Little note to MRFS- thanks for your email ages ago and apologies for not yet replying- I haven't forgotten and aim to reply to you in the next couple of days in response to your kind offer) *warms up A3 scanner* ;D
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Sept 2, 2008 18:02:56 GMT
If you're not aware the traffic Circular and Engineers Train Suppliment were published as one issue,it wasn't till the late 70's that it was split into Traffic Circular & Engineering Works and Safety Arrangements.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2008 11:20:30 GMT
Thanks for the replies. In December 1961 the available steam locos would have been: L30 and L31 ex District Hunslet locos, L44, L46, L48 (Met E class), L52 (Met F class), L54 (Peckett 0-6-0ST), L90, L91 ( the second ones!!), L92-96 (ex-GW Pannier tanks). I also forgot to mention that the Chiltern Court siding received its last 'revenue' train - ie of boiler coal for the Court- on August 3rd 1961 so by the time of the supplement it is possible that the now-redundant siding was pressed into engineer's use. I don't believe it was a very long siding though (I do have the exact length but not to hand) so can only have been on limited use.
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on Sept 3, 2008 11:38:39 GMT
Without a reference book I am relying on online sources...the Panniers I knwon a little about. However whereas Peckett L53 was withdrawn in 1960, one sources suggests L54 was withdrawn in1961. I liked the Peckett design, and drove and fired one several times on the North Norfolk Railway.
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Sept 3, 2008 17:05:03 GMT
If you're not aware the traffic Circular and Engineers Train Suppliment were published as one issue,it wasn't till the late 70's that it was split into Traffic Circular & Engineering Works and Safety Arrangements. Pre EWSA there was also a time when separate Ballast Train Supplements were published in tandem with the TC; I'm pretty sure I've got the last full TC before the spilt - if I remember I'll have a look in that part of the library (it's hiding behind some rather large block instruments that are bookends for the TTNs). I'm not sure when the separate Ballast Train Supplements stopped - I think sometime during the late 60s/cusp of the 70s.
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Sept 3, 2008 18:27:17 GMT
In my hazy memory I'm sure the Traffic Circular took up the front of the publication with booked engineers trains at the back.
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Sept 3, 2008 19:04:41 GMT
Found it! Traffic Circular Railways No1 , commencing 8th January 1955: 'Commencing with this issue the weekly Traffic Circular will no longer include ballast train arrangements. These will in future be shown in a separate Supplement to the Traffic Circular, and the attention of Staff is specially directed to paragraph 3 of this circular' *3 BALLAST TRAIN SUPPLEMENTCommencing with this week's issue a 'Ballast Train Supplement to the Traffic Circular will be issued each Friday. This Supplement will contain the following arrangements hitherto shown in the weekly Traffic Circular:- (a) ballast train running either during traffic hours or during non traffic hours and hitherto included in the paragraph of the Traffic Circular entitled "Ballast Train Working" .
(b) Arrangements regarding either gauging or other trains run during non-traffic hours.
The issue of the 'Ballast Train Supplement' will be limited to staff immediately affected by the running of ballast trains, or of gauging or other special tains during non-traffic hours. Any staff not recieving a copy of the 'Ballast Train Supplement', but who consider that their work is affected by the arrangements contained therein, should apply through their immediate supervisor for the Supplement to be issued to them. This is possibly the nearly-most obscure question I've answered! ;D ;D ;D Edit: I can currently find (well - accessioned into the database) 22 pre-1955 TCs and 1 Ballast Train Supplement that have details of Ballast Train et al working.
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Post by upfast on Sept 3, 2008 20:21:58 GMT
Has anyone noticed the "dodgy" photos on the cover of recent EWSAs? Like a man standing next to female passengers on the train, when there are empty seats further down the train!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2008 11:41:46 GMT
I've got another question related to the Ballast Train Supplements- sorry. Under the dates of most of the workings the make up of the train concerned is listed. A small number do not have a formation listed. Is it safe to assume that these would be pure ballast trains (rather than other types of engineer's train) and consist of a steam loco and ballast hopper wagons (plus brake vans ? at each end)?
Thanks in advance.
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Sept 7, 2008 12:58:41 GMT
I'm not sure - but the scanner's whirring away next to me I suppose it depends on which lines the formationless trains were timetabled to run - if they were District/Met then I think you'd be onto a fairly safe bet with your guess. Incidentally, I've just recieved another batch of goodies - in there is an 'Appendix to Traffic Circular, Engineer's Trains' - which seems to be the Ballast Train Supplement redidivus - this one dates from 1970 - so I wonder when the Ballast Train Supplements were renamed?
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Post by 21146 on Sept 7, 2008 14:03:58 GMT
Has anyone noticed the "dodgy" photos on the cover of recent EWSAs? Like a man standing next to female passengers on the train, when there are empty seats further down the train! Looks like he's being penalty-fared. In fact these 'restaged' modern versions of old b&w photos involve one of the ARA's staff responsible for artwork, hence her frequent appearances on the cover of recent issues.
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DWS
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Post by DWS on Sept 7, 2008 19:40:48 GMT
I've got another question related to the Ballast Train Supplements- sorry. Under the dates of most of the workings the make up of the train concerned is listed. A small number do not have a formation listed. Is it safe to assume that these would be pure ballast trains (rather than other types of engineer's train) and consist of a steam loco and ballast hopper wagons (plus brake vans ? at each end)? Thanks in advance. Some workings use to have "Stock as required" this was used when wagons needed to be moved between sites, such as Neasden depot, Ruslip, Lillie Bridge.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2009 17:08:12 GMT
If it is of interest, Traffic Circular 8/69 states that with effect from 1 March 1969, Ballast Trains will be renamed Engineers' Trains.
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Post by upfast on Jan 5, 2009 17:11:20 GMT
If it is of interest, Traffic Circular 8/69 states that with effect from 1 March 1969, Ballast Trains will be renamed Engineers' Trains. And many people, including those who were not even around back them still call them ballast trains!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2009 17:53:58 GMT
Indeed - me likewise - once a Ballast Train, always a Ballast Train - and I was around then with just four year's service! Happy days.
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