TMBA
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Posts: 364
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P.I.S.
Aug 23, 2008 11:22:01 GMT
Post by TMBA on Aug 23, 2008 11:22:01 GMT
Its the second time in not so many weeks now that Ive taken a train out of service because of the Passenger/Customer Information Service P.I.S. becoming defective.
The first time was when the PIS failed on the west leaving Becontree when the PA light stayed on throughout the journey to Upney and the second time was today when the PIS failed leaving Turnham Green wb towards Richmond, again it made the obligatory announcement that the next station will be Gunnersbury and the PA light remained on or stayed flashing, and on both occasions the key pad was dead or just flashing.
On both occasions I removed the train from service not because of the PA screwing up but because the Cab to Cab phone was inoperative on both ends which is part of our safety critical equipment.
Now I was told by the Barking TT that according to his fault sheets in the depot at Upminster that a train should remain in service with the cab to cab inoperative and the train c/o at the next available time.
This raises 3 points of safety if it remains in service
1, If the driver became incapacitated whilst awaiting a c/o what then?
2, Part of our push out proceedure is using the Cab to Cab phone, what then?
& 3, does the train even after tipping out need a second man in case of the driver becoming incapacitated. I ran the train through the road with no Cab to Cab but the controller was fully aware of the circumstances so I suppose I've just answered my own question.
But what do you think?
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P.I.S.
Aug 23, 2008 11:28:25 GMT
Post by chrish on Aug 23, 2008 11:28:25 GMT
Its the second time in not so many weeks now that Ive taken a train out of service because of the Passenger/Customer Information Service P.I.S. becoming defective. The first time was when the PIS failed on the west leaving Becontree when the PA light stayed on throughout the journey to Upney and the second time was today when the PIS failed leaving Turnham Green wb towards Richmond, again it made the obligatory announcement that the next station will be Gunnersbury and the PA light remained on or stayed flashing, and on both occasions the key pad was dead or just flashing. On both occasions I removed the train from service not because of the PA screwing up but because the Cab to Cab phone was inoperative on both ends which is part of our safety critical equipment. Now I was told by the Barking TT that according to his fault sheets in the depot at Upminster that a train should remain in service with the cab to cab inoperative and the train c/o at the next available time. This raises 3 points of safety if it remains in service 1, If the driver became incapacitated whilst awaiting a c/o what then? 2, Part of our push out proceedure is using the Cab to Cab phone, what then? & 3, does the train even after tipping out need a second man in case of the driver becoming incapacitated. I ran the train through the road with no Cab to Cab but the controller was fully aware of the circumstances so I suppose I've just answered my own question. But what do you think? Well, why would losing the cab to cab phone make it any worse should the driver become incapacitated? Especially if the controller knows about it.. As for being required for push outs etc.. there is nothing really unsafe about that either as far as i can see. Just means you can't do it! So, if they want to risk a train sitting down permanently in central London resulting in a total shutdown until that train is fixed, so be it! |
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Chris M
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P.I.S.
Aug 23, 2008 12:34:25 GMT
Post by Chris M on Aug 23, 2008 12:34:25 GMT
Could Connect handsets be used in lieu of cab-to-cab radio during a push out procedure?
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P.I.S.
Aug 23, 2008 13:18:30 GMT
Post by chrish on Aug 23, 2008 13:18:30 GMT
Could Connect handsets be used in lieu of cab-to-cab radio during a push out procedure? Yes... any connect handset can call the train radio providing you know the leading car number... Some drivers contravene the rule book and refuse to carry round their handset though |
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Deleted
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P.I.S.
Aug 23, 2008 13:23:47 GMT
Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2008 13:23:47 GMT
Could Connect handsets be used in lieu of cab-to-cab radio during a push out procedure? We discussed this, stock course I think... the consensus of our I/Os was that the trouble is that cab-to-cab is bi-directional (like a phone call), but Connect isn't. You are supposed to have constant, two-way communication during pushouts (or driving from the rear, come to that), because the way we were taught to communicate was that, simultaneously, something like this should be happening: Observing-driver: "Motor, motor, motor.. coast, coast, coast, coast, coast, brake.." Driving-driver: "Motoring, motoring, motoring.. coasting, coasting, coasting, coasting, coasting, braking.." ..basically a constant stream of commands and acknowledgements should be exchanged, which is problematic with Connect. Additionally, cab-to-cab is less likely to fail since it doesn't have to content with blackspots (well, grey spots: Connect is fairly reasonable coverage-wide, but some handsets seem to be able to operate on lower signal strength than others) or battery failure. I believe we were told that if we ever stopped hearing the observing driver/driving driver (depending what role we were playing), the train should be stopped immediately and that progress should not continue until communications could be re-established. |
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P.I.S.
Aug 23, 2008 13:51:58 GMT
Post by chrish on Aug 23, 2008 13:51:58 GMT
Could Connect handsets be used in lieu of cab-to-cab radio during a push out procedure? We discussed this, stock course I think... the consensus of our I/Os was that the trouble is that cab-to-cab is bi-directional (like a phone call), but Connect isn't. You are supposed to have constant, two-way communication during pushouts (or driving from the rear, come to that), because the way we were taught to communicate was that, simultaneously, something like this should be happening: Observing-driver: "Motor, motor, motor.. coast, coast, coast, coast, coast, brake.." Driving-driver: "Motoring, motoring, motoring.. coasting, coasting, coasting, coasting, coasting, braking.." ..basically a constant stream of commands and acknowledgements should be exchanged, which is problematic with Connect. Additionally, cab-to-cab is less likely to fail since it doesn't have to content with blackspots (well, grey spots: Connect is fairly reasonable coverage-wide, but some handsets seem to be able to operate on lower signal strength than others) or battery failure. I believe we were told that if we ever stopped hearing the observing driver/driving driver (depending what role we were playing), the train should be stopped immediately and that progress should not continue until communications could be re-established. Hmmm.. I have never been told that you have to say anything if you are the driving driver... so I personally would be happy with just a one-way system. As long as the driver in the leading cab can be heard, and hence the instructions, then all should be fine. It seems to me that it would just take extra concentration by the driving driver to hear whats being said, react to it, and also repeat it back to the other driver whilst still listening to the other driver... seems a bit over complex! If you stop hearing the driver in the front cab... emergency brakes get applied... if this is strictly adhered to then no need for a 2 way system. |
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P.I.S.
Aug 23, 2008 16:05:36 GMT
Post by upfast on Aug 23, 2008 16:05:36 GMT
Could Connect handsets be used in lieu of cab-to-cab radio during a push out procedure? Yes... any connect handset can call the train radio providing you know the leading car number... Some drivers contravene the rule book and refuse to carry round their handset though There is no rule that forces Train Ops to carry a hand portable radio. Could Connect handsets be used in lieu of cab-to-cab radio during a push out procedure? We discussed this, stock course I think... the consensus of our I/Os was that the trouble is that cab-to-cab is bi-directional (like a phone call), but Connect isn't. You are supposed to have constant, two-way communication during pushouts (or driving from the rear, come to that), because the way we were taught to communicate was that, simultaneously, something like this should be happening: Observing-driver: "Motor, motor, motor.. coast, coast, coast, coast, coast, brake.." Driving-driver: "Motoring, motoring, motoring.. coasting, coasting, coasting, coasting, coasting, braking.." ..basically a constant stream of commands and acknowledgements should be exchanged, which is problematic with Connect. Additionally, cab-to-cab is less likely to fail since it doesn't have to content with blackspots (well, grey spots: Connect is fairly reasonable coverage-wide, but some handsets seem to be able to operate on lower signal strength than others) or battery failure. I believe we were told that if we ever stopped hearing the observing driver/driving driver (depending what role we were playing), the train should be stopped immediately and that progress should not continue until communications could be re-established. When in direct pair mode, can they not be used like a telephone then? |
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Deleted
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P.I.S.
Aug 23, 2008 16:11:47 GMT
Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2008 16:11:47 GMT
Hmmm.. I have never been told that you have to say anything if you are the driving driver... so I personally would be happy with just a one-way system. As long as the driver in the leading cab can be heard, and hence the instructions, then all should be fine. It seems to me that it would just take extra concentration by the driving driver to hear whats being said, react to it, and also repeat it back to the other driver whilst still listening to the other driver... seems a bit over complex! If you stop hearing the driver in the front cab... emergency brakes get applied... if this is strictly adhered to then no need for a 2 way system. That was simply how we were taught on the stock course; it's possible that other lines (or even just other drivers) do it differently. We did it up and down in the depot for quite a while and I didn't find any particular problem in repeating back the instructions - maybe that's just my female-given ability to multitask, though? ;) |
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Deleted
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P.I.S.
Aug 23, 2008 18:25:33 GMT
Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2008 18:25:33 GMT
Now I was told by the Barking TT that according to his fault sheets in the depot at Upminster that a train should remain in service with the cab to cab inoperative and the train c/o at the next available time. What do the Defective In Service Instructions for D stock state? Without double checking, I'd say changeover ASAP but not sure about in/out of service until changeover. |
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Deleted
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P.I.S.
Aug 23, 2008 18:36:57 GMT
Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2008 18:36:57 GMT
you could say this about any fault WHAT IF ********* happens end of the day its upto the driver really to decide what to do
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Deleted
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P.I.S.
Aug 23, 2008 18:43:52 GMT
Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2008 18:43:52 GMT
DISI book says changeover ASAP.
I had a completely dead PIS panel (including cab-to-cab) a while back and kept it in service and requested a changeover. No TT was available at Earls Court and it took a lot of convincing for the LC to agree a changeover at Ealing Common "because the defect hasn't been confirmed" ! Yeah, control, it doesn't take any specialist knowledge to see that it's completed FUBAR!
As for assisting drivers, I agree with chrish - the assisting driver needs to be able to hear the driver at the front, but communication in the other direction isn't so crucial. After all, the assisting driver can stop the train at any time if there is a problem at his end.
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Deleted
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P.I.S.
Aug 24, 2008 4:09:24 GMT
Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2008 4:09:24 GMT
you could say this about any fault WHAT IF ********* happens end of the day its upto the driver really to decide what to do Of course - but discussing the potential implications helps drivers decide what to do. It's one thing to learn a list of defects which cause the train to be withdrawn from service parrot-fashion, far better to understand the implications of certain problems and be able to take a more informed decision. Discussions like this are very useful for the latter. |
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P.I.S.
Aug 24, 2008 12:00:56 GMT
Post by chrish on Aug 24, 2008 12:00:56 GMT
Yes... any connect handset can call the train radio providing you know the leading car number... Some drivers contravene the rule book and refuse to carry round their handset though There is no rule that forces Train Ops to carry a hand portable radio. When in direct pair mode, can they not be used like a telephone then? I did think someone was going to say that, but Rulebook 6: Section 2.2: Train Operators Equipment: You must make sure you have the following equipment and publications with you: (ignoring most of the list)... a hand-held radio (where provided) I can only see one possible way to read this.. if they have issued you with a connect handset then you must carry it! As for direct mode, I think that means anyone else in direct mode in the same talk group only receives all the messages you transmit... still not sure about 2 people transmitting at once though. I only know this from TrainOpD78 and myself playing in the messroom! |
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Colin
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P.I.S.
Aug 24, 2008 14:21:37 GMT
Post by Colin on Aug 24, 2008 14:21:37 GMT
TrainOpD78 and myself playing in the messroom Playing at work eh? tut tut ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D As for the use of a Connect handset; one Connect handset can be used to call another (or as mentioned, a train cab using the leading car number). This works in the same way as any other hand held radio, with both users able to talk & receive. Talk groups are completely different to one-to-one calls (direct mode if you like). The three things needed for a pushout (be it an assisting driver from the rear, another train or whatever) are: - Communications
- Brakes off
- Brakes on
A connect handset can quite easily cover the communications part using the one-to-one facility, so what's the problem? |
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Deleted
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P.I.S.
Aug 24, 2008 14:29:46 GMT
Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2008 14:29:46 GMT
I'd agree with ChrisH !
One way would be good enough for the most part, only the leading driver is required to speak continually on our line.
With an assisting train connect cab to cab does work like a telephone. The hand portables don't, but i still think useable ... except between Kew Gardens and Richmond, which has a lengthy dead spot and has had since commisioning !
As for the dead DVA system, a test if the fall back PA works can be useful, this must be operative in all cars for the train to safely run in passenger service.
On SSR lines an incapacitated driver would most likely be investigated by the quicker method of drawing up a train on the adjacent track, if using the train behind, well if the first driver is incapacitated and doesn't answer the cab to cab, presumably the effect is the same as if it's not working, and is then dealt with by the assisting driver proceeding to the front of the train ?
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P.I.S.
Aug 24, 2008 22:23:16 GMT
Post by trainopd78 on Aug 24, 2008 22:23:16 GMT
The one to one call on connect is perfectly acceptable. You certainly don't want a 2 way conversation when doing a push out, the person at the front needs to give a one way constant communication. Don't forget 90% of all railway related incidents are caused by bad communications.  In this case i'd call constant 2 way comms bad as misunderstandings then become too easy leading to mistakes. Remember the old adage of "go, coast, brake, keep talking", the complete understanding between the driver and the assist being when the person at the front stops talking then emergency brakes are applied by the assist. That way, nothing can go wrong even if it is caused by a dead spot in the radio. The second point I was going to make is that the controller can patch 2 connect radios together using their dispatcher unit, but apart from the fact the controller can interrupt if required, I cant see any other plus point to using it over a one to one call. Direct mode won't allow 2 way conversation. It's still PTT and release to listen. I personally cant see any point of direct mode for our purposes. |
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Deleted
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P.I.S.
Aug 25, 2008 21:47:44 GMT
Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2008 21:47:44 GMT
Rulebook 6: Section 2.2: Train Operators Equipment: You must make sure you have the following equipment and publications with you: (ignoring most of the list)... a hand-held radio (where provided) I can only see one possible way to read this.. if they have issued you with a connect handset then you must carry it! A local instruction was issued last week on the Picc stating that T/Op's must now carry their hand held radio's along with their other equipment. Prior to last week it was optional. |
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In this case i'd call constant 2 way comms bad as misunderstandings then become too easy leading to mistakes. Remember the old adage of "go, coast, brake, keep talking", the complete understanding between the driver and the assist being when the person at the front stops talking then emergency brakes are applied by the assist. That way, nothing can go wrong even if it is caused by a dead spot in the radio.
