mrfs42
71E25683904T 172E6538094T
Big Hair Day
Posts: 5,922
|
Post by mrfs42 on Aug 18, 2008 23:42:02 GMT
And the Victoria line doesn't run a train every 1 - 2 minutes, last time I heard it's rush hour frequency was 28.5tph, which is a train just over every 2 minutes. That does not mean the minimum separation between trains is 2 minutes 6 seconds. Ok, much theoretical play is made of the 81/82 second block joints on the Vic, but I think (and am open to correction here) is that the minimum temporal separation in practice is something like 112 or 117 seconds, possibly less in certain locations - cue stephenk or tubeprune? As I've said before, tph figures only give a 'snapshot' of the actual working of a timetable and are not the best detailed analysis tool. In the WTT library I've got a couple of timing clerks copies of WTTs and the records there are fascinating. However, I've strayed far away from the topic; so I'll end there.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2008 7:10:27 GMT
The reason for the dimensions of tube tunnels and rolling stock is that, whenever the calculations have been done, it has been found that they give the best balance between cost of construction, cost of running, and income from passengers. The designers of every other metro system in the world disagree. There is no other metro system built at deep level, because no other major city has London's clay. Because of the clay layer, deep level tunnels of small diameter work best in London: if they did not, London would have a different rail system. In other cities, located on rock or soft soil, sub-surface tunnels of larger dimensions work best.
|
|
|
Post by ducatisti on Aug 19, 2008 8:38:27 GMT
Moscow subway's pretty deep too
Why is a small tunnel (in engineering terms) better than a large tunnel? apart from cost reasons? I don't think the London clay is that thin that a larger tunnel couldn't be put through it. Also, there are at least four different tube diameters that have been used (original C&SLR, "standard", Victoria/JLE, and Northern City). The Jubilee line extension spends most of it's time out of the london clay belt where it's south of the river
|
|
|
Post by Dmitri on Aug 19, 2008 9:34:49 GMT
There is no other metro system built at deep level, because no other major city has London's clay. In the St. Petersburg Metro (the deepest in the world), 53 out of 60 stations are 50-75 metres deep. Reason: St. Petersburg is built on the swamp, tunnels are under the swamp.
|
|
|
Post by Dmitri on Aug 19, 2008 9:40:02 GMT
Moscow subway's pretty deep too Mostly central part. The deepest station is 84 m deep.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2008 9:53:30 GMT
There is no other metro system built at deep level, because no other major city has London's clay. Because of the clay layer, deep level tunnels of small diameter work best in London: if they did not, London would have a different rail system. In other cities, located on rock or soft soil, sub-surface tunnels of larger dimensions work best. So what about Glasgow? Their tube is deep-level, so far as I can make out.
|
|
Chris M
Global Moderator
Forum Quizmaster
Always happy to receive quiz ideas and pictures by email or PM
Posts: 19,761
|
Post by Chris M on Aug 19, 2008 11:48:34 GMT
There are plenty of deep level lines and stations, e.g. Arsenalna station on the Kiev Metro is 102 metres deep, there are 50 and 60 metre deep sections in Barcelona. Bilbao has a 45 metre deep section, and Montreal one section between stations that is 55 metres deep (the deepest station is 29.6 metres deep). In Prague the deepest station is 52-53 metres down (sources vary) with the deepest section being 68 metres below the surface. Paris gets down only 30 metres, Copenhagen manages 33 metres (but never more than 18 metres at stations). Washington Park station on the MAX light rail system in Portland, Oregon is 70 metres down, the Pyongyang Metro is also claimed to be the deepest at "approximately 110 metres deep". St Petersberg and Pyongyang claim to be the deepest (I've seen various figures of 50-115 metres for St Petersberg (1 even claims 170 metres) and 110 metres for Pyongyang) St Patersberg (Admiralteyskaya - 105 metres), Moscow (Park Pobedy (Victory Park) - variously 84-97 metres) and Kyiv (Arsenalna - variously 102-107 metres) claim to have the deepest station, Portland claims the deepest in North America and the second deepest in the world after Moscow (Washington Park 70 metres). The deepest station in the southern hemisphere is Parliament Square station in Melbourne (42 metres deep) For comparison, the deepest section on the tube is 67 metres, the deepest station is 58 metres.
|
|
|
Post by pgb on Aug 19, 2008 12:00:04 GMT
So what about Glasgow? Their tube is deep-level, so far as I can make out. I'm not sure if Glasgow is deep level or not, I suspect not as most stations are acessible by a small flight of stairs or a short escalator.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2008 17:23:37 GMT
So what about Glasgow? Their tube is deep-level, so far as I can make out. I'm not sure if Glasgow is deep level or not, I suspect not as most stations are acessible by a small flight of stairs or a short escalator. I see. I sort of assumed it was deep-level because it's one of the few underground systems to run in bore-tunnels rather than cut-and-cover.
|
|
mrfs42
71E25683904T 172E6538094T
Big Hair Day
Posts: 5,922
|
Post by mrfs42 on Aug 19, 2008 17:36:40 GMT
I'm not sure if Glasgow is deep level or not, I suspect not as most stations are acessible by a small flight of stairs or a short escalator. I see. I sort of assumed it was deep-level because it's one of the few underground systems to run in bore-tunnels rather than cut-and-cover. At the risk of wandering too far off-topic the Subway of Babylon-on-Clyde isn't particularly deep level; nor was it exclusively bored. The tunnels are only on average about 30 feet below the surface level - majority of tunnel constructed in brick with cross-passages every 50 yards or so. Cast iron lining only used in the four tunnels under the river.
|
|
Chris M
Global Moderator
Forum Quizmaster
Always happy to receive quiz ideas and pictures by email or PM
Posts: 19,761
|
Post by Chris M on Aug 19, 2008 17:40:13 GMT
I've had a quick look and I've found that the deepest section is unsurprisingly that below the Clyde, but I've not found what the depth actually is there.
|
|
mrfs42
71E25683904T 172E6538094T
Big Hair Day
Posts: 5,922
|
Post by mrfs42 on Aug 19, 2008 18:02:38 GMT
Apart from under the Clyde I think it's around the top end of the Outer Circle - Kelvinbridge springs to mind as that was the longest way down to platform level from ground level on the Great Western Road. Used to use that station to go and ring the bells at Glasgow Episcopalian Cathedral.
Anyway back to the JLE what's the geology south of the river? Is it gravels, rather than clays?
|
|
|
Post by edwin on Aug 19, 2008 19:36:45 GMT
And the Victoria line doesn't run a train every 1 - 2 minutes, last time I heard it's rush hour frequency was 28.5tph, which is a train just over every 2 minutes. That does not mean the minimum separation between trains is 2 minutes 6 seconds. Ok, much theoretical play is made of the 81/82 second block joints on the Vic, but I think (and am open to correction here) is that the minimum temporal separation in practice is something like 112 or 117 seconds, possibly less in certain locations - cue stephenk or tubeprune? As I've said before, tph figures only give a 'snapshot' of the actual working of a timetable and are not the best detailed analysis tool. In the WTT library I've got a couple of timing clerks copies of WTTs and the records there are fascinating. However, I've strayed far away from the topic; so I'll end there. I'm not really sure of your point. Tph shows how many trains pass a certain point in an hour, if more trains pass in an hour, then tph will be higher.
|
|
|
Post by tubeprune on Aug 19, 2008 20:20:14 GMT
The reason for the original Jubilee Line alignment was to relieve the overcrowding on the Bakerloo south of Baker Street.
|
|
|
Post by tubeprune on Aug 19, 2008 20:40:20 GMT
And the Victoria line doesn't run a train every 1 - 2 minutes, last time I heard it's rush hour frequency was 28.5tph, which is a train just over every 2 minutes. That does not mean the minimum separation between trains is 2 minutes 6 seconds. Ok, much theoretical play is made of the 81/82 second block joints on the Vic, but I think (and am open to correction here) is that the minimum temporal separation in practice is something like 112 or 117 seconds, possibly less in certain locations - cue stephenk or tubeprune? *enters stage left* The design was based on a headway of 82s, to which you add a 30s platform dwell giving 112s between trains. A margin is added to give a 120s timetabled headway. The constraint on the Victoria Line is at Brixton, where the minimum headway possible at the terminus is 126s, which restricts the train service to 28.5tph. *exist stage right with the next actor entering 126s later*
|
|
|
Post by ducatisti on Aug 19, 2008 21:28:11 GMT
Woolwhich and Reading beds of sand and gravel, some shifty sandstone, and a few bomb craters that aren't properly filled in and empty into tunnels when you cut the bottom of the cone
|
|
mrfs42
71E25683904T 172E6538094T
Big Hair Day
Posts: 5,922
|
Post by mrfs42 on Aug 20, 2008 1:27:36 GMT
I'm not really sure of your point. Tph shows how many trains pass a certain point in an hour, if more trains pass in an hour, then tph will be higher. For a start, factor in non-stopping, skip-stopping, PT notes. TPH is an exceptionally crude analysis tool, use Aldgate East as an example. At best it gives an overview, at worst it hyper-inflates trains passing a given point - as they might not serve that station or ultimately the branch you're examining the service provided. What really matters in the structure of a timetable is not how many trains in an hour can pass that given point. What does matter is 'how far behind can a train follow?[1]' and 'where is it going?'. Having ready access to over a century's worth of working timetables and almost eighty years worth of signalling notices (I'm not writing that to show-off about what information I've got, just to say I've got a small idea of how the timetabling has changed with the resignalling and headway modification of locations over the years) I can honestly say that to approach the analysis of this information in terms of trains per hour would be ultimately valueless. I know, because I've tried! Timetables do not work around given points, they work around timing constraints: The constraint on the Victoria Line is at Brixton, where the minimum headway possible at the terminus is 126s, which restricts the train service to 28.5tph. *exit stage right with the next actor entering 126s later* (voice from the wings says 'Sidings' ;D) Now, consider the Victoria Line *without* Brixton. Have the terminus at Warren Street or Highbury or Victoria. You'll get pretty similar tph values for any of those three locations, but the actual distance/time separation for each location is quite different between following trains - I've worked through the appropriate WTTs and signalling notices comparing and contrasting various values, in each case you end up with virtually the same tph value (in whole integer terms) but the practical minimum time between these is wildly at variance between each other with the same tph value. Although I do these by longhand rather than a 'trusty spreadsheet'. Returning to the JLE - I'm doing a similar sort of exercise at the moment; beginning with JLE (Extension) WTT 1 - three trains shuttling Stratford - North Greenwich, matters further complicate themselves with pure tph analysis alone with bang road running at the east end. Although for the Jubilee line, my information goes back to Met. days, so this could be a long while before I'm prepared to put pen to paper (or finger to keyboard). I suspect that to do the matter justice I'm going to need to go back to the opening and the CTC signalling. Woolwich and Reading beds of sand and gravel, some shifty sandstone, and a few bomb craters that aren't properly filled in and empty into tunnels when you cut the bottom of the cone Ta! [1] temporal or spatial separation.
|
|
|
Post by edwin on Aug 20, 2008 19:32:19 GMT
I'm not really sure of your point. Tph shows how many trains pass a certain point in an hour, if more trains pass in an hour, then tph will be higher. For a start, factor in non-stopping, skip-stopping, PT notes. TPH is an exceptionally crude analysis tool, use Aldgate East as an example. At best it gives an overview, at worst it hyper-inflates trains passing a given point - as they might not serve that station or ultimately the branch you're examining the service provided. What really matters in the structure of a timetable is not how many trains in an hour can pass that given point. What does matter is 'how far behind can a train follow?[1]' and 'where is it going?'. Having ready access to over a century's worth of working timetables and almost eighty years worth of signalling notices (I'm not writing that to show-off about what information I've got, just to say I've got a small idea of how the timetabling has changed with the resignalling and headway modification of locations over the years) I can honestly say that to approach the analysis of this information in terms of trains per hour would be ultimately valueless. I know, because I've tried! Timetables do not work around given points, they work around timing constraints: I understand that you know more about this than me... but the Jubilee line has no branches, and i'm pretty certain they don't include non passenger carrying trains in the tph value!
|
|
mrfs42
71E25683904T 172E6538094T
Big Hair Day
Posts: 5,922
|
Post by mrfs42 on Aug 21, 2008 1:22:39 GMT
If you are going to consider tph as the only analysis tool, then you require two things: no branches and no turnbacks. JPT proved that by implication back in 1928.
|
|
|
Post by edwin on Aug 21, 2008 15:07:27 GMT
Who is JPT, and what are turnbacks?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2008 15:12:15 GMT
J.P. Thomas - head of traffic at the UndergrounD group / LONDON TRANSPORT . He wrote a book about the principles of London Underground operations in 1928.
|
|
mrfs42
71E25683904T 172E6538094T
Big Hair Day
Posts: 5,922
|
Post by mrfs42 on Aug 21, 2008 15:35:59 GMT
Turnbacks are trains that reverse before the terminus of the line. In the case of Stanmore and the ongoing farrago of the third platform there simply isn't enough room to fit in all the Jubilee service at Stanmore, so trains reverse - 'turn back' at Willesden Green and Wembley Park - I can't remember the peak pattern off the top off my head (as I'm sitting at the other end of the village from my WTT library); but it is some thing like 2 to Stanmore, 1 Willesden Green, 2 Stanmore, 1 Wembley Park. Or something fairly close to that - so if you quote a tph value for the whole line, you've got to weight it in terms of how many go terminus - terminus and how many turn back short of the terminus. In this case the tph through Finchley Road will be significantly more than the tph through Canons Park in the same direction.
|
|
|
Post by edwin on Aug 21, 2008 18:09:35 GMT
1/3 of all northbound Victoria line trains therefore turnback at Seven Sisters, apparently.
Am I right in thinking that the Jubilee line will run every train Stanmore to Stratford in the peak hours after ATO conversion, hence the third platform at Stanmore?
|
|
mrfs42
71E25683904T 172E6538094T
Big Hair Day
Posts: 5,922
|
Post by mrfs42 on Aug 22, 2008 1:48:24 GMT
It all depends which part of the upgrade gets finished first - fleet or infrastructure modifications. My money is on the fleet.
Indeed, about a 1/3 do turnback at Seven Sisters during the day - however, not all reverse straightaway, some run under the column note 'VN' and become staff trains.
|
|
|
Post by railtechnician on Aug 22, 2008 8:59:38 GMT
J.P. Thomas - head of traffic at the UndergrounD group / L ONDON TRANSPORT . He wrote a book about the principles of London Underground operations in 1928. Yep it's a very interesting incite into LT's Underground operations in 1928. I am fortunate to have a first edition in my library.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2008 5:06:11 GMT
The reason for the dimensions of tube tunnels and rolling stock is that, whenever the calculations have been done, it has been found that they give the best balance between cost of construction, cost of running, and income from passengers. The designers of every other metro system in the world disagree. So why then is Japan increasingly building smaller profile metro systems? There is no other metro system built at deep level, because no other major city has London's clay. Moscow, Kiev, St Petersburg, Prague, Paris, Madrid, Hong Kong, Vienna, Washington, Turin, Copenhagen, and many many more metro systems have deep level bored tunnel sections.
|
|