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Post by Admin Team on May 10, 2005 13:00:23 GMT
I've received an email which I reproduce below.
Knowing what a knowledgeable bunch you all are I thought you might be able to help with this.
The mail reads.........
'I am doing research for a painting of a 1938 tube stock interior, set in the early 1960s. Does anyone know which TRAILER cars numbered in the 0124XX batch worked on the NORTHERN Line during that time? Help would be most appreciated.'
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Post by piccadillypilot on May 10, 2005 14:40:13 GMT
This is the closest I can get to answering the question.
From “The 1938 Tube Stock” by Piers Connor, published 1989 by Capital Transport Publishing.
The Numbering System
As mentioned earlier the 1935 experimental tube stock saw the introduction of a new system for car numbering on the tube lines which involved the use of five or six figure numbers. The same system was continued for the 1938 and 1949 stocks as follows:
No. Series Type of Car
l0xxx 'A' Driving Motor
11 xxx 'D' Driving Motor
12xxx Non- Driving Motor
012xxx Trailer
90xxx 'A' Driving Motor (9-car trains)
91xxx 'D' Driving Motor (9-car trains)
920xx Non-Driving Motor (9-car trains)
924xx Special Non-Driving Motor (9-car trains)
092xxx Trailer (9-car trains)
A92xxx Trailer (Standardised for Bakerloo)
30xxx 'A' Uncoupling Non-Driving Motor
31xxx 'D' Uncoupling Non-Driving Motor
012xxxC Trailer (with two compressors)
705xx 58 Trailer (1927 converted stock)
It was originally planned that all the new trains would be composed of all motor cars, and that all units would be of two cars. A 2-car unit would have a numerically matching pair of cars, e.g. 10012-11012. When 3-car units were introduced into the plan, it was still intended to retain all-motor-car trains. The extra car would be numbered in the 12000 series and units made up thus: 10012-12012-11012. With the realisation that all motor-car trains would be too powerful for the current supply and too fast for the signalling system, and the consequent introduction of trailers, the 012xxx series of numbers was introduced. It was hoped that all-motor-cars would eventually be the rule and that all trailers would become NDMs. Renumbering them was then simply a matter of removing the leading zero.
Although the matching number concept could have been applied to the trailer units thus: 10158-01215811158 or (in the case of 58 trailers) 10013-70513-11013, it was abandoned soon after the decision to use converted 1927 cars and could never really have survived with all the renumbering and reforming which went on during the late 1930s. However, the idea of retaining the matching motor-car pairs survived until the final days of the stock. It was only abandoned when UNDMs were introduced or when units were temporarily reformed because of programme changes or collision repairs.
A renewed attempt to get like units into blocks of numbers occurred during the 1949 uncoupling programme. The 3-car units which were fitted with two compressors were arranged in a consecutive series of numbers: 10151-012xxxC-11151 to 10287-012xxxC11287 odd numbers only. The whole stock was allocated as follows:
10012 to 10040 (evens) 4-car units on Piccadilly
10013 to 10041 (odds) 3-cars with 31xxx UNDMs on Piccadilly
10042 to 10148 (evens) 4-car units on Bakerloo
10043 to 10103 (odds) 3-cars with 31xxx UNDMs on Bakerloo
10105 to 10149 (odds) 3-car units on Bakerloo
10151 to 10287 (odds) 3-cars with 2 compressors on Northern
10150 to 10288 (evens) 4-car units on Northern
11013 to 11101 (odds) 3-cars with 30xxx UNDMs on Northern
10289 to 10333 4-car units on Northern
This was the eventual allocation of the stock. However, transfers took place from time to time and, over the years up to 1970, some 10 cars were withdrawn, mostly as a result of accidents, and a number of units were reformed.
The 1949 programme saw a lot of renumbering. All the 90xxx and 91xxx driving motor cars were renumbered into the 10xxx and 11xxx series but not necessarily at the time they were standardised. The 924xx SNDMs were all renumbered into the 30xxx series upon their conversion to UNDMs. Two 120xx cars also became 30xxx UNDMs. The other 9-car train vehicles were given standard numbers as they were formed into standard units, merely by changing the '9' digit for a T.
The introduction of a system based on five-digit car numbers had been firmly resisted by the many traditionalists on the Underground when it was first proposed in 1935. There would be an increase in recording errors, it was said, and the great variety of numbering and renumbering was causing enough headaches already. Graff-Baker countered the opposition by pushing the matching pairs idea. It was a pity it never survived in its original form but the principle was retained and refined and has survived to this day.
Maybe there's someone out there with a 1960s Rolling Stock book?
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Post by q8 on May 10, 2005 17:00:07 GMT
I have the rolling stock book for 1969 with all the 012xxx car numbers in it. When windows has been put right I will scan it and post it. Hopefully next week so please be patient.
As a quick ref I will give a unit formation.
"A" end (north)10044-012192-12012-11044 x 10012-102495-11012 "D" end (south)
Bakerloo trains were formed round the other way with the 3 car unit at the north end
Piccadilly 1938 trains had the 3 car unit at the west end
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Post by piccadillypilot on May 10, 2005 17:11:03 GMT
Piccadilly 1938 trains had the 3 car unit at the west end Can you check that please Q8? The only reason I'm querying is because both 59s and 73s had three car units at the east end. |
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Post by q8 on May 10, 2005 17:33:05 GMT
Defintely says in the book as follows :-
"A" DM West 10021-012169-31037 x 10020-012168-12100-11020 "D" DM East
As you can see it had to be that way as the "UMDUM" had to be in the middle (obviously)
I think they had to be that way round as they were sometimes swapped with northern line units so had to the right way round for that line even given the Kennington loop
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Post by q8 on May 10, 2005 18:03:31 GMT
Does anyone know which TRAILER cars numbered in the 0124XX batch worked on the NORTHERN Line during that time?
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The 0124xx numbers I can find in the list are as follows:-
10296-012416-12151-11296 x 30000-012483-11055
10303-012415-12040-11303 x 30003-012470-11029
There are others which I will scan and post soon
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Post by piccadillypilot on May 10, 2005 18:05:00 GMT
I think they had to be that way round as they were sometimes swapped with northern line units OK, thanks. |
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solidbond
Staff Emeritus
'Give me 118 reasons for an Audible Warning on a C Stock'
Posts: 1,215
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Post by solidbond on May 10, 2005 19:14:35 GMT
Can you check that please Q8? The only reason I'm querying is because both 59s and 73s had three car units at the east end. But I thought the 73 had three car units at the west end?  ;D ;D |
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Post by Admin Team on May 10, 2005 19:19:53 GMT
*Shouts* STOP!!!!
Some interesting stuff chaps, and I'm sure it's all top stuff, but can we try to come up with an answer to the question!
I think my correspondent isn't *quite* as retentive as some of us, so can we refer back to the original question?
After all, if a painting was to be produced with wrong car numbers illustrated I'd bet you'd be the first to criticise?
Refocus please?
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Post by q8 on May 10, 2005 22:27:22 GMT
Some interesting stuff chaps, and I'm sure it's all top stuff, but can we try to come up with an answer to the question!
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I Have answered the question DD. The young man specifically asked for car numbers in the 0124xx series and I have provided some in the unit numbers I gave. I will, as I said, provide the whole caboodle when my Windows xp is repaired.
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Post by q8 on May 10, 2005 22:37:21 GMT
Full list of 0124xx cars working on the Northern line circa 1969.
012400 012415 012417 012498 012414 012499 012413 012497 012401 012407 012405 012403 were in 4 car north end units
012495 012474 012483 012470 012408 012471 012486 012469 012479 012482 012402 012475 were in south end 3 car units
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Post by Admin Team on May 11, 2005 9:02:49 GMT
Thanks for that Q8!
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Post by moquetteman on May 13, 2005 19:58:15 GMT
(Hello all, I am the sender of the email to Dave)
I think you have it Q8
It is down to 012413, 14,15, & 17 or 012469, 70, 71, 74 & 75
The pics title will be "Green & Gold to Golders Green" so a car number like 012414 would be appropriate for the northern for 59-62. It can be alphabetically linked, A=1, B=2, C=3, etc 0.12.4.14 becomes O.L.D.N ryhmes with golden - get it?!
Please check this though as it would be just my luck that 012414 was somewhere else in 59-62!
Thanks for the "young man" bit, I like to think I am but wept buckets when the last Standard ran on the Hainault loop!
Thanks for the input, I will post a link to the picture soon, I hope you will approve!
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Post by q8 on May 13, 2005 22:42:27 GMT
As far as I can tell 012414 stayed all it's life on the Northern Line from building to scrapping. However I will delve a little more as it may have made occasional forays on to The Bakerloo or Piccadilly in it's time.
As for you grief over the demise of the Standard stock I too was sad to see them go. They were my favourite tube sized stock. They shared many features of my beloved "Q's" including the same motors and compressors. However the term "Standard" was a misnomer as as they were anything but. They had three different types of controller. Some had a bell you could use at a wedding others had one that sounded like a music box. Some had different wiring circuits to others for the same function. Oh there were all sorts of oddities in the class.
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;D ;D
