Circles to Go

And so we've gone full-circle

Give the Hammersmith Branch to Crossrail and run the Wimblewares through to Barking!

I personally think that an extra platform should be built at Edgware Road on the site of the soon to be useless sidings. This, would allow some flexibility on terminating both Wimbledon and Circle trains. This does not solve the problem of the bottle neck, but it could mean the T-cup could work with ATO. I still think the Circle line should stay as it is.

Standards should be broken if for the genuine and overwhelming benefit and furtherance of the integrity of the system. Surely??? What about Wood Lane depot; IIRC some standards were broken for that to take place?

I think I remember someone saying on here that a service similar to the t-cup was tried during engineering works at some point in the past. From what I remember of the conversation it was deemed a complete failure.

I don't suppose that the platform staff at Edgware Road will be happy with having to deal with the vast numbers of passengers who will be stuck waiting for a train there either.

I've posted about this before, but I can also forsee capacity problems on the footbridge at Edgware Road, the platforms and access to the platforms at Paddington Bishop's Road. Even at present levels it can be difficult to go against the flow. I can see people getting knocked onto the track at Paddington through pressure of the crowds.
What I've not seen is anything to show that either my fears are unfounded or that modifications will be made to the stations to prevent them from happening.

Typing the above has just led me to another thought. If for whatever reason the line is blocked at Paddington Bishop's Road. At present this would mean a suspension of the H&C but the Circle would be able to continue. With the T-cup though, will there be sufficient capacity to reverse west-east at Edgware Road in addition to reversing the entire t-cup and Wimbleware service from Praed Street?
If (as I suspect) there is not capacity, I can see only these possible services:

• Suspension HSK - Edgware Road. This means no SSL service at Paddington, so presumably overcrowding and delays to the Bakerloo service as a result.
  
• Suspension Edgware Road - Baker Street. Limited reversing capacity at Baker Street I believe, and pax stranded at Edgware Road, overcrowding and delays on the Bakerloo.
  
• Extend the Outer Rail service and reverse it east-west to Moorgate/Liverpool Street/Aldgate (in the latter case a Met suspension east of Baker Street or Moorgate may be needed). Probably the best solution from a passenger point of view, but probably the most disruptive from an operational point of view - is there capacity to run these extended trains e.g. reversing at Moorgate is disruptive, a train entering the bays there has to cross the inner rail on the flat. t/op hours/reliefs/etc to worry about.
  

From reading all the posts on this forum, the only way for a t-cup service to be anything other than a disaster are:

• Redevelop Moorgate so the bay platforms used for terminating trains are between the through platforms, and terminate the trains there rather than Edgware Road.*
  
• Four track or significantly upgrade the capacity of the line between Edgware Road and Praed Street Junction.
  

*With trains running Hammersmith - Kings Cross - Liverpool Street - Tower Hill - Vcitoria - HSK - Edgware Road - Kings Cross - Moorgate, only passengers then inconvenienced over the existing Circle Line are those travelling from Bayswater to Liverpool Street, who will and already do have a quicker journey using the Central from Queensway (less than 2 minutes walk away at street level). Journey times from High Street Kensington to Liverpool Street via Victoria are, iirc, about 1-2 minutes longer than via Baker Street, so passengers here would be very slightly inconvenienced, but a more reliable service would almost certainly result in a quicker journey anyway.
With the t-cup as proposed, passengers from roughly Bayswater - Embankment travelling to stations on the northern side of the circle (Baker Street to Liverpool Street) and vice versa have an inferior service.

Well, Bayswater (and Notting Hill Gate) are well-used stations so I am at a loss to see the logic of reducing the service to them. AIUI there's a legal process involved if it's proposed to close a station, but not for a service reduction.

So there are no effective channels for us passengers to protest the loss of trains between Edgware Road and Earl's Court. I shall go to Putney by bus and serve you right!

I should be very surprised indeed if there were any paths available between Kings Cross and Farringdon as the lack of paths on this section (or rather the lack of trains on the southern section of the route because some have gone to Moorgate) following that line's upgrade is as far as I am aware, one of the principle reasons for the withdrawal of services over the Farringdon-Moorgate section.

There are a lot of flat junctions on the Circle, so why is it that everyone says reversing at Moorgate causes problems when there are a lot more places where trains have to wait, for example at Baker Street (the Met NB crosses the outer rail) that are busier than Moorgate?

T cups achelies heel is the 2 sucessive junctions at Baker Street and Paddington, with no clear route having priority at either. Grade seperation would only partially help, because it would mean trains couldn't turn at Edgware Road.

The easiest method I can see would be to take the Westbound (Ex) Hammersmith line to a level below that of the main formation west of Praed Street Junction, and keep it at such level until after Baker Street, where it would rise and form a junction before GPS. One new platform at Baker Street and Edgware Road each, however platform 1 or 2 at Baker Street would become disused. The pro of this is that the other plat could then be extended to 8car length without extra expensive civils of relocating the sewer. Does this make sense? Drawbacks: Epic cost, trains ex HSK must terminate at Edgware Road, disused plat at Baker Street

Thats not quite what I ment...I'll post a diagram up to explain my point.

Probably more expensive than your idea, is the layout below which should give maximum flexibility. For example allows the existing eastbound Circle platform at Baker Street to become a bi-di reversing platform, taking some reversing pressure off Edgware Road.



Trains to and from HSK will normally use the centre platforms at Edgware Road, while Hammersmith branch trains will use the outside platforms.

About the only restrictions are that you can't get to Hammersmith from the centre platforms at Edgware Road, and ex-Hammersmith trains can't reverse east-west at Edgware Road other than via a mainline shunt, instead these trains would continue to Baker Street and reverse there.

Edit: I've realised that with the addition of a single trailing crossover between Bishop's Road and the flyunder you can get even more flexibility, including revsersing ex-Hammersmith trains at Edgware Road.

Allowing for the fact that there is almost nothing wrong with the way the service works now !!! (And that could be overcome by stepping back each Circle operator 2 trains on each pass of Edgware Road).

The only way I can see of keeping a tea cup with no additional stock or paths is ...

Run the tea cup as planned Hammersmith - Circle - Edgware Road and reverse. With Wimbledon - Edgware Road - Plaistow - Barking.

and effectively abandon the H&C all together.

It would need Barking and Edgware Road operators trained Triangle - Wimbledon and District operators Edgware Road - Aldgate East via Kings Cross. But that would add flexibility anyway !

The Wimbledon C stocks run every 10 mins and that would allow a 15min extra Hammersmith - Edgware Road shuttle to provide the desired increase on that branch.

It would provide through running from all locations and doesn't overload Edgware Road's reversing capacity !

I don't give the plan as intended much of a life span !!

Chris, your solution is ingenious if expensive and would I think preserve the Wimblewares (which is what I really care about - perhaps I'll have to spend a few weeks going up and down the line getting folk to sign a petition...)

However, it looks to me as if there would be three separate platforms, none very near to another, from which trains would leave Baker for Great Portland and stations east... should make for some interesting customer information boards...