Circles to Go

They could announce 'This is a Circle line train via Paddington and Kings Cross St Pancras' when on the Hammersmith branch, then use the same announcements that they use now, unitl they are at about Victoria, where they could change to 'This is a Circle line train to Edgware Road'.

I'll be in brussels that weekend for my cousins wedding, but back Sunday evening. I shall look forward to seeing the destination indicators whilst waiting for my comfortable A stock train home! (unless there is engineering works!)

Not exactly - a good idea in principle , but a 'one-sided' test only. In other words if it goes t**s up on a weekend they KNOW they've got trouble , but if it goes well they've still no idea how it'll work in the weekday peaks and with service disruptions . Worth doing IMHO, even if a limited experiment.

There's no 'simulated peak' in the trial ops C&H TTN

It operates an off peak pattern (with existing off peak run times), which is as you say the same as the peak in terms of frequencies/pattern

There is a period on the Saturday afternoon approx 1430 - 1830 when trains run east of Whitechapel to fully replicate the Dec 09 off peak service

For the rest of the Saturday and all day Sunday all trains terminate at Whitechapel

This reply re-inforces every point I've ever made about quite a few things.

1. The information I have is typical of what we get in the good old mushroom factory (for those unfamiliar with this analogy, we're kept in the dark and fed brown stuff.)

2. The test weekends will definately be un-realistic, and as my colleague earlier stated, the true chaos will not be seen until December.

Shedcompnodosh, if you truly are in a position to hand this out as proper information, then kindly unmask yourself to at least me and linecontroller66. Should we learn that you are in a position of authority, then at the very least start giving us the information where we should hear it from. It is ridiculous that I am only kept informed about the railway I control by means of logging into a forum. I am on duty for at least 2 of the weekends, and yet so far I'm heading into it more or less blindfolded, apart from communication concerning staff numbers - or lack of them where I sit. Thank you.

Do you not think the rest of us ought to be equally treated to the same information you seek? Surely it would be beneficial to both drivers and station staff if they were kept in the loop? At least then we could all sing from the same song sheet and achieve the same goal.

Reality is somewhat different however, whether it be train crew depots, stations or service control.

I would however suggest - and this is keeping in mind the fact I am awaiting a training date for service controller - that as a controller you can potentially have any problem at any instance on the day, and the way you'll deal with those problems won't be any different to what you do today. As with any WTT, it'll either work or it won't and you'll never find that out until you work it.

If I'm wrong (as I'm not in the grade - you are), fair enough - but if I'm right, you don't really have much of basis for saying you need to be more informed than the rest of us.

Just seen the special working duties for those weekends. I thought they'd made a mistake and given us the District sheets. over 4 hours on the same train? Unheard of on the C&H thanks to stepbacks and the 3 circles agreement.

Ouch.

I couldn't quite believe that one when it was being sold to us. As an ex T/Op, the more trains you had then the less handle turning you did due to the stepbacks in your duty. I was most surprised when informed by senior management that the amount of pickups had been greatly reduced and that this would be welcomed by the T/Ops at the depots in question and would relieve a lot of the pressure on Service Control. Unfortunately, and as usual no one in management seems to have grasped this, the more pick ups there are then the easier it is for us to reform the service where things have gone wrong. It also allows T/Ops time to get a drink or nip to the loo. Another chance lost to improve things!!

That is correct.

I would think the 3 Circles agreement would be null & void.

It only exists because drivers are in the same cab, on the same seat, and could theoretically do 4 circles - the Professional Train Drivers agreement allows for a max driving period of 4 hours 15 minutes - the T cup service pattern removes the problem as drivers will change ends after each "Circle".

In which case I have misunderstood the point you were making, for which I apologise.

As for you potentially gaining something as a result of your posting on the forum, we've always said this forum is watched by influential people within LU......

Sorry for the long post, just caught up on the whole thread and I have a few questions.

1. Is the increase in Hammersmith branch frequency part of some deal with Westfield that involved financial contribution or influence from the developers as hinted at on this thread? Perhaps the service changes are a sop to the developers and if they go wrong TfL can just turn around and say 'it doesn't work, we're changing it back'. Keeping the same names and signs would certainly help.

2. Are there any stations on the Circle route which could be used for terminators from both directions as per Loughton? For example, could Aldgate, Tower Hill, Gloucester Road, HSK etc be a destination from both directions (clockwise and anti-clockwise)? This could be useful if a no-circle option is tried out in future where the remaining sub-surface lines take over former circle services as extra branches. Alternatively, if they want/need to reinstate the Circle but without the Hammersmith branch they could have a simple end to end terminus at one of the stations (or more flexible arrangements involving multiple destinations but all on the circle).

3. Without new trains, signalling, training, new points, a lot of expensive alteration and construction etc, is it possible to increase service frequency from Hammersmith without decreasing clockwise combined frequencies from the Circle and Wimbleware?

4. A costly option is linking Chiltern with Wimbleware via a new link from west of Praed Street Junction to (north of) Marylebone. This must be the shortest and cheapest way of extending Wimbleware and completely taking it away from the the circle/H&C east of Praed Street (call the whole line Chiltern). The Hammersmith branch could be linked to it too.

Is the Circle deep enough - or is there enough space - to tunnel off it from west of Praed Street? How feasible is it to divert the H&C into the new line headed for Marylebone?

5. Assuming the West London Line gets metro frequencies eventually how feasible is a new 'Earl's Court West' interchange station on the WLL (assuming no Olympia shuttle existed), District Acton line and Picc? Is West Kensington - perhaps with extended platforms - close enough to be linked to a new WLL station?

6. Would the Olympia shuttle shutting (with the new interchange further west replacing it) improve service options from both district branches to both sides of the circle through Earl's Court (including higher frequencies if Wimbleware is linked to Chiltern)? Certainly it would simplify it for the public.

7. How feasible is 4-tracking from Praed Street to Edgware Road and using the sidings for an extra platform?


The SSR could be simplified to a Circle Line with the branch out from both directions to Aldgate East and branches in both directions to Earl's Court and branching to Wimbledon and Acton etc with the Wimbleware branch terminating at Edgware Road (or extended to the Chiltern...) and another branch entering at Baker Street. That would mean Met, District and Circle lines. With the Chiltern option you get effectively 3 branches off a circle (from Aldgate, Earl's Court and Baker Street/Marylebone joining the Circle in both directions) meaning only two lines down each section of 2-track circle (i.e. Circle plus one).

That leaves the Hammersmith branch which could be connected to Wimbleware-Chiltern (see above) or the Bakerloo line either way possibly freeing up Paddington terminal space.

As for Paddington, how about Paddington (Mainline) and Paddington (Praed Street).

Thanks for the response. I wasn't trying to publicise proposals or justify them on cost grounds, was just trying to see whether particular possibilities are feasible. Any suggestions are in relation to the new service and what it impacts on, or alternatives to it.

I had no idea the suggestion of an alternative service pattern or modification to a section of route was exclusive to the 'fantasy' forum. I must have misread this thread or misinterpreted all the Moorgate and deep level tube suggestions and diagrams.

And there was me trying to keep things modest by avoiding whole new tunnels across the north-central area (which would be feasible but very costly).



Yes or no? Do you mean Edgware Road could do the job but not very well?



So you're saying the Circle and Wimbleware frequencies into Edgware Road clockwise are not being decreased?



Mainly for Picc line both ways and District line from Acton (plus of course many outward bound trains wouldn't be going to Wimbledon...) if the Olympia shuttle were stopped but I would agree hardly essential. Would the Olympia shuttle be missed without some improved interchange facilities elsewhere?



How? Could you clarify please???

Oh yes. I have very strong suspicions that this place, and most likely this thread are being watched by one individual who, how can I put it (without giving the game away or putting myself in an awkward position) is quite interested in how things turn out.

Incidentally I have now been furnished with all the information required. One of the items may only be a timetable, but it makes for very interesting reading...