Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2008 19:22:40 GMT
I believe they are a legal requirement, but do we really need PEA's onboard LU trains - with in-cab CCTV?
Last nights Circle Line mayhem was made worse by the malicious activation of the PEA's. Apart from somebody being dragged along by a train, I can't think of many reasons why the PEA being used would be a benefit when the train was between stations.
The PEA could be replaced by a 2 way intercom & CCTV and the driver could then make the decision to stop or continue to the next station.
It appears to me that all to often the PEA being operated is a malicious activation or when genuine, could be dealt with just as easily using a 2 way intercom.
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Post by Tomcakes on Jun 1, 2008 19:49:25 GMT
Isn't that what, effectively, they are anyway?
Since pulling the cord no longer stops the train, merely alerts the driver to the presence of a problem, and (IIRC) they can speak to passengers, what's different?
Wouldn't it diminish safety, though, if the driver could just 'remotely' assess something, rather than physically going down there, seeing there was no harm, and resetting? Especially since the unions are (rightly) adamant that safety is the priority.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2008 21:14:20 GMT
Isn't that what, effectively, they are anyway? Since pulling the cord no longer stops the train, merely alerts the driver to the presence of a problem, and (IIRC) they can speak to passengers, what's different? Wouldn't it diminish safety, though, if the driver could just 'remotely' assess something, rather than physically going down there, seeing there was no harm, and resetting? Especially since the unions are (rightly) adamant that safety is the priority. Actually, the PEA's *do* apply the brakes - however, the driver can then override this if the train is not within station limits, since there is very little a driver can do to aid a situation when not at a platform, and every moment a train is held up in a tunnel, you're putting more passengers at risk in the trains behind, especially at busy times. Most (though possibly not all) stocks currently have the talkback facility, so the driver can find out from the passengers what the problem is. The new Victoria line stock is supposed to have in-cab CCTV that will automatically switch to the activated PEA - much like the help points on the station currently do in the ops room/SS's office. |
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Jun 1, 2008 21:14:47 GMT
The PEA could be replaced by a 2 way intercom & CCTV and the driver could then make the decision to stop or continue to the next station. So how would the driver be alerted to a problem if there are no handles? Isn't that what, effectively, they are anyway? Since pulling the cord no longer stops the train, merely alerts the driver to the presence of a problem, and (IIRC) they can speak to passengers, what's different? I won't dig a hole for myself by speaking about stocks I have no knowledge of, but I can assure you there have been no changes made to C or D stocks. If the PEA is operated on C or D stock, the emergency brakes will be applied. There is no talkback facillity on C stocks. Wouldn't it diminish safety, though, if the driver could just 'remotely' assess something, rather than physically going down there, seeing there was no harm, and resetting? Especially since the unions are (rightly) adamant that safety is the priority. Furthermore, if a driver can call off an incident without leaving the cab, how do we justify keeping station staff? By investigating every PEA properly, we are justified in demanding no more cuts to station staffing (and therefore driver back-up)! The new Victoria line stock is supposed to have in-cab CCTV that will automatically switch to the activated PEA - much like the help points on the station currently do in the ops room/SS's office. As will S stock. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2008 21:24:05 GMT
I was thinking more of a help point/ intercom that the PAX could talk to the driver but not apply the brakes.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2008 21:32:03 GMT
I was thinking more of a help point/ intercom that the PAX could talk to the driver but not apply the brakes. 92s onward and refurbished D stock do have an intercom (talkback) facility, but on most operations genuine or malicious nobody answers the driver so he still has to go back anyway. I have given up with even using the talkback completely. |
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Jun 1, 2008 21:36:46 GMT
Not sure how much of a legal requirement the alarm actually is, but on ALL NR stock (including 1st Gen. DMUs AND steam) the train can be 'driven through' the emergency brake. Vital if for example there is a fire: driver MUST be able to continue to a suitable detrainment point if necessary. Comments about stopping in tunnels is fully taken, but almost all lines have overground sections........
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Post by chrish on Jun 1, 2008 23:04:02 GMT
I won't dig a hole for myself by speaking about stocks I have no knowledge of, but I can assure you there have been no changes made to C or D stocks. If the PEA is operated on C or D stock, the emergency brakes will be applied. There is no talkback facillity on C stocks. Well, not the emergency brakes on a C stock... you get a max EP application! You can't override an emergency application on a C stock, as you have no train line air left! |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2008 23:59:22 GMT
It gives max EP on C stock and 72 stock. The driver has to press a footswitch to overide it (the brake application, not the alarm). You can make the alarm a bit quieter by pressing the sarcastically named "PA MUTE" button in the cab. The only way to stop the alarm is to go back and reset the handle that has been pulled. There is no talkback facility and no cctv on these stocks so you are basically going to investigate "blind".
I don't know about these new-fangled stocks... but I don't trust them.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Jun 2, 2008 11:23:57 GMT
Well, not the emergency brakes on a C stock... you get a max EP application! You can't override an emergency application on a C stock, as you have no train line air left! Whoops - you are quite correct of course. I must learn not say anything about stock......it almost always leads to me needing a JCB to make that hole I dig bigger  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D |
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Post by Tomcakes on Jun 3, 2008 11:31:34 GMT
I had always thought that the train would only stop within station limits - hence the numbered boards - and if the train was past them it would continue to the next station? Or is this only on modern stocks?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2008 12:26:37 GMT
I had always thought that the train would only stop within station limits - hence the numbered boards - and if the train was past them it would continue to the next station? Or is this only on modern stocks? No, that's the rule for all stocks. |
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Post by happybunny on Jun 3, 2008 12:34:51 GMT
When I was on the Jubilee line, it was made very clear (in stock training and job training) that upon a PEA operation we must let the train stop and establish communication with the passenger via talkback. This is if the train is in station limits or not !
If via talkback you decide its best to carry on (i.e. accidental, person collapsed ) to the next station then the driver may cut out a PEA override (which is in the cabinet on the bulkhead, and it is a sealed rotary switch), the brakes will then be released and the train can continue to the next station where the PEA will be reset. If the passenger does not communicate with the driver, he MUST go back to the car and investigate.. even if between stations!
This was certainly the case when I was there... under no circumstances could you carry on to the next station without investigating.
I had one once between Canning Tn and Canary Wharf and the train was packed, luckily the passenger talked in the talk back and said they did it by accident so it wasn't too much of a problem.
What worries me is, say some idiot decides to walk between the cars and slips, someone pulls the alarm and the driver just overrides and carries on to the next station, could result in an avoidable death.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2008 13:24:04 GMT
Never had this happen on the Underground while I've been on it yet. I exercised common sense when there was a low-life walking between cars on the Northern - he managed but if he had slipped, I would have operated the PEA.
Had it happen on Thameslink once - someone operated the PEA between City and KX - only just clear of City in fact - and we were stuck there a while. This was on a night when I was going from Blackfriars to Hendon - and I'd had a problem that was going to need a minicab on arrival at Hendon - the problem had occurred at the top of the stairs at Blackfriars (PM if you want to know more) with the train just in so it was the best place I could sit down.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2008 14:20:20 GMT
When I was on the Jubilee line, it was made very clear (in stock training and job training) that upon a PEA operation we must let the train stop and establish communication with the passenger via talkback. This is if the train is in station limits or not ! If via talkback you decide its best to carry on (i.e. accidental, person collapsed ) to the next station then the driver may cut out a PEA override (which is in the cabinet on the bulkhead, and it is a sealed rotary switch), the brakes will then be released and the train can continue to the next station where the PEA will be reset. If the passenger does not communicate with the driver, he MUST go back to the car and investigate.. even if between stations! This was certainly the case when I was there... under no circumstances could you carry on to the next station without investigating. Well it's not the case any more, at least not on the District Line - unless you receive definite information to the contrary, carry on to the next station if the alarm was operated outside station limits. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2008 15:19:54 GMT
What worries me is, say some idiot decides to walk between the cars and slips, someone pulls the alarm and the driver just overrides and carries on to the next station, could result in an avoidable death. How long would a train travelling at 30mph take to stop? Surely the person would be dead anyway? ). I'm trying to think of what circumstances would there be a need to actually stop a train - rather than alert the train operator to a problem? The only thing I can think of is if somebody is trapped in the train doors. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2008 0:27:19 GMT
What worries me is, say some idiot decides to walk between the cars and slips, someone pulls the alarm and the driver just overrides and carries on to the next station, could result in an avoidable death. People who walk between cars do it at their own risk, there are stickers on all communicating doors saying "Warning, danger of death, do not use when train is moving". They walk through at their own risk as far as I'm concerned. |
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Post by peanuts on Jun 4, 2008 13:55:05 GMT
How long would a train travelling at 30mph take to stop? Surely the person would be dead anyway? ). depends on - - gradiant - weight of train (i.e. empty or fullen laden) - braking capacity - track conditions |
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Jun 4, 2008 14:56:58 GMT
The train wouldnt have to be going 30mph. Say it gets stopped at a signal between stations, guy goes to walk through doors but just as hes doing it or just before the train jolts back into movement, he trips on door tread plates and someone pulls alarm.
Surely if the train were doing 3-5mph it would stop within a yard or so? That could result in the person living.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2008 15:47:14 GMT
But then in that example, PAX gets onto the help point and tells driver somebody has just fallen off the train. Driver stops.
Then 3 hours later the PAX's are walked off the train. ;D
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
