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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2007 21:43:45 GMT
Get yourself a cup of tea, turn down the lights, then .........
click on the links below oooOOOOOOOWWWAaaaaaah
ghosts on the tube video--enjoy
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Post by nexus6 on Mar 21, 2007 21:49:34 GMT
I saw that program when it was on TV recently - fascinating stuff. I do believe in ghosts (even though I have never seen one) and some of those stories are quite creepy.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2007 21:52:14 GMT
I too believe in the Supernatural and UFO's... I mean, come on... we can't be the only beings on the planet!
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Post by nexus6 on Mar 21, 2007 22:34:04 GMT
I too believe in the Supernatural and UFO's... I mean, come on... we can't be the only beings on the planet! So true. It is widely accepted in the scientific community that there are more stars in the universe than there are grains of sand on this planet: at least 100 stars for every grain of sand. We cannot even begin to comprehend the numbers involved here. Which is why I think it is monumentally arrogant of people to think we are the only forms of intelligent life in the universe. Anyway, back on topic. I believe there is a ghost on the Kennington loop on the Northern line (it probably features on that program). I hope I get to see it when I start driving on the Northern, but only if the experience doesn't cause me to have a SPAD!
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Mar 21, 2007 22:46:06 GMT
I don't think it's arrogance, I think it is down to peoples personal opinion. I choose not to believe in aliens or ghosts for that matter, but I accept that there are arguements for both.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2007 22:52:50 GMT
old Grandfather tales of the mess room; a T/Op many years ago stopped his train halfway into the old British Museum station, after seeing a 'figure' standing in the four foot among the dim lights of the train... Now I have never seen it myself, but this does make you think...
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Mar 21, 2007 22:56:03 GMT
For every strange event there is generally a rational explanation IMHO.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2007 23:04:56 GMT
Q8 once posted a story elsewhere about a ghost in Newbury Park SB.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Mar 21, 2007 23:49:20 GMT
In fairness, I know quite a few of those staff and have worked closely with two of them in particular (one is a member of this very forum!). They are normal everyday railwaymen so I guess they genuinely believe what they are saying. Neither of the two that I have worked with have ever mentioned their experiences. As an aside, one of my last jobs as a DMT was to escort the film crew around for that program.
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Mar 22, 2007 10:35:14 GMT
So true. It is widely accepted in the scientific community that there are more stars in the universe than there are grains of sand on this planet: at least 100 stars for every grain of sand. We cannot even begin to comprehend the numbers involved here. Which is why I think it is monumentally arrogant of people to think we are the only forms of intelligent life in the universe. Back off topic , your very argument itself goes against there being other life forms elsewhere. The evolutionary scientists (the ones who don't believe in a god) tell us that every stage of life evolving was a result of an incredibly small chance event. In other words the fact of life being here comes from a series of events whose combined chance sequence is infinitesimally small. Even allowing for an infinite universe this means the chance of any life, let alone complicated life such as mammals, even less man, on other planets is so unlikely as to be dismissed. So, in order to believe in life on other planets the only realistic option is to conclude that they were put there by some sort of creator.....
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2007 10:37:43 GMT
i swear that was on tv at halloween?
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Mar 22, 2007 11:01:35 GMT
Phil - the big assumption in that is that the conditions required for life on earth are required by all life everywhere. If the universe is infinite, isn't it possible that there are an infinite number of conditions that can lead to life?
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Post by ongarparknride on Mar 22, 2007 11:37:13 GMT
It would indeed be ironic to find in the future, as a result of man travelling thousands of light years, the space shuttle landed on another life-supporting planet where they used 7' 0 1/4" gauge. How would we rate this as evidence of intelligent life?
:-)
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Post by CSLR on Mar 22, 2007 11:55:58 GMT
If the universe is infinite, isn't it possible that there are an infinite number of conditions that can lead to life? By that reasoning, there may be things on earth that we do not recognise as life that are really living things. If that is the case, it therefore follows that there may be things that we believe to be living that are not. I can think of a few people who might fit into the latter category including several telesales people, a couple of television quiz presenters and a former lift attendant on the Northern Line.
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Post by Chris W on Mar 22, 2007 13:21:36 GMT
Phil - the big assumption in that is that the conditions required for life on earth are required by all life everywhere. If the universe is infinite, isn't it possible that there are an infinite number of conditions that can lead to life? Aren't we a carbon based life form? - the theory is that other lifeforms have the potential to be based on other elements (some we may not even know of or can even comprehend yet). Ufologists such as Tim Good or the former MOD Air Secretariat, Nick Pope, do say that in approx 97% of cases/reports, there is a rational explanation for claims of UFO's & aliens - the question is what are the other 3% - who knows It just remains a mystery, however these could also be 'black' project/prototype aircraft (for those who believe such theories). Probably the most famous unexplained UK sighting/experience was the Rendlesham Forest incident of December 1980 ( Google it if your not aware or want more info). IMO its best to keep an open mind - I can't prove there there is life on other planets, just as much as anyone else can't categorically disprove this. But to quote the movie Contact, if there is no life elsewhere in the cosmos, it would be an awful waste of space
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Post by ongarparknride on Mar 22, 2007 17:34:15 GMT
I'm really enjoying how this thread is devolving, and glad it does not breach any religion or politics site netiquette.
Ghosts etc. and life elsewhere in the Universe are largely matters of personal beliefs and possible most influenced either by a religion based on Faith which is tending towards subjective, and Science that tends to be more objective.
But the point arises that compared with say a century ago, our knowledge of Science has advanced greatly.
Keeping an open mind seems the best bet. After all, we humans have some inherited surplus or disappeared bodily functions such as a tail, appendix, tonsils etc. that can be fairly accurately assessed given our current medical scientific knowledge.
Where we cannot yet assess is how our brains and minds might have similar attributes.
Perhaps the most commonly experiend example of this is the feeling of "deja vue" - apologies for spelling but I think many readers here know what I mean.
And I also think probably philosophy and religion account between them for a substantial bulk of all writings (and www pages) created to date in the history of mankind.
Tolerance, AND keeping an open mind, seems the best way to accept and personally judge what is one's right to a personal opinion, and respecting alternative views of others.
Cheers, All.
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Post by nexus6 on Mar 22, 2007 19:05:29 GMT
For me, I would be swayed towards the belief that ghosts and intelligent extraterrestrial life do exist because I find the arguments for their existence to be more compelling than the arguments against. I'm not saying that non-believers are wrong, just that their arguments generally don't convince me.
There are many things we don't understand, which is why I think keeping an open mind about these things is a good bet. At present, no one can prove or disprove ghosts, etc. and discussions like this one (which I love!) are good for encouraging debate and throwing new ideas and theories around.
What about the human brain? Could abilities like telekinesis and telepathy be possible? The brain is a largely untapped resource that, in the grand scheme of things, we don't actually know that much about. Fascinating stuff. (Damn, I'm off topic again!)
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Post by ongarparknride on Mar 22, 2007 19:40:36 GMT
Adding to Nexus-6's post above, I echo his option towards having an open mind. One of the most publicised comparatively-modern "ghostbusters" was Harry Price, specifically in the investigations of Borley Rectory, in Essex, around the 1930's if I Recollect Correctly.
He was, I understand, subsequently wholly discredited.
It is an unfortunate trait of most human instinct to want to control others, be greedy, and exercise Power. Some do this through Religion; Others go the route of the Occult.
We have the benefit of approximately 4,000 years of written history. Ignoring for the moment over that 4,000 years it has been re-written, re-translated, and re-stated to comply with all the current intervening political and social "best-practices" over that 4,000 years, the lesson we should learn is that of tolerance and NOT trying to convert or force others to accept our specific beliefs.
Keeping an open mind leads to stability, interest and development of new knowledge. Sadly, too frequently in our complex multinational society, we see attempts to dictate and impose "political or religious correctness".
We are mere humans and not all of us are going to get it right all of the time for everyone.
Getting back to the Essence of this Forum, the UK Victorian Era was no doubt questionable in some aspects of its society and behaviour. Yet arguably extreme and minority individual open-minders led generations of inventions, developments and continued the post 1700's Industrial Revelution to form the Acknowledged Basis of all we rely on today to support such a massively increasing global population. Canals, Bridges, Railways, Sewerage......
Yup folks, and we end up with the earliest Underground System and all its faults here in London BECAUSE WE WERE FIRST.
Easy for everyone else in the world to learn from our mistakes :-)
I trust the spirit of this Forum agrees we should seek new knowledge and new opinions, but we should have the freedom to discuss - politely - alternatives, so as to make up our own minds.
To believe in a religion on Faith, or to keep an open mind.
To respect each of us are entitled to our own opinions.
And, perhaps most importantly in view of the development of Science in the last couple of hundred years or so, to accept We Don't Know All The Answers yet.
Cheers,
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Post by nexus6 on Mar 22, 2007 22:24:28 GMT
...And, perhaps most importantly in view of the development of Science in the last couple of hundred years or so, to accept We Don't Know All The Answers yet... Well said. That sentence alone sums up what this is all about.
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Mar 22, 2007 22:45:30 GMT
...And, perhaps most importantly in view of the development of Science in the last couple of hundred years or so, to accept We Don't Know All The Answers yet... Well said. That sentence alone sums up what this is all about. I am a scientist and I couldn't agree more. I always describe the act of science as trying to write the rules of (say) rugby solely by watching the game. This means one person could write the rules without ever mentioning tries (coz there were none in the game/s he watched). Another might write the rules but miss the dropped goal. And so on. Even watching an infinite number of games you might STILL not see all types of play. What really worries me is the scientists who "KNOW" they have it all worked out - there have been some frightening misconceptions over the years (especially over the neutron for any young scientist reading). And even the scientists who first split the atom were not ABSOLUTELY sure they would not start a chain reaction that would destroy the world.............. Phil - the big assumption in that is that the conditions required for life on earth are required by all life everywhere. If the universe is infinite, isn't it possible that there are an infinite number of conditions that can lead to life? According to the experts certain critical conditions must occur in a singular critical sequence. This militates against your theory, assuming you are basing your arguments on chance events alone. Aren't we a carbon based life form? - the theory is that other lifeforms have the potential to be based on other elements (some we may not even know of or can even comprehend yet). If there was just one big bang then all the elements we know here are all the elements in the universe as a whole. It is therefore unlikely (subject to my strictures above.... ) for there to be life forms based on other than carbon. Silicon-based, so beloved of Doctor Who, would not give the necessary complex compounds as far as we know.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2007 8:33:23 GMT
For every strange event there is generally a rational explanation IMHO. A good comment. It seems that those who see ghosts tend to be of the less rational personality!
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Post by CSLR on Mar 23, 2007 10:48:08 GMT
It seems that those who see ghosts tend to be of the less rational personality! This of course depends on how we define 'a ghost'. I prefer to consider them as unexplained phenomena, but some people base their views on explanations that have been formulated by others and which have often been modified to fit that persons beliefs. Perhaps the best way to describe the wide range of views is to consider the term UFO. The letters were originally used to describe an unidentified flying object, they were never meant to signify an extra terrestrial craft - although this is the meaning that many people now leap at when they hear the abbreviation. I think that a real step forward would be not to question the rational of everyone who has experience something that is unexplained, but rather to expand the vocabulary of descriptive words. What we are talking about can include such a wide spectrum of things as a sound, a feeling, a percieved sighting or something that is actually seen. These are all different things and although many of them will have a rational explanation, there will always be a few that will not. At the moment, it seems that we have little alternative other than bunching everything together under the term 'ghost', simply because we have no other words to use.
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Post by Chris W on Mar 23, 2007 13:02:21 GMT
At the end of the day a UFO is exactly that - an Unidentified Flying Object. To then immediately jump to the conclusion that it is from another planet/solar system/dimension etc. etc. is ludicrous. It is simply unidentified in that you do not know what it is.
Talk of aliens, EBE's (Extratresstrial Biological Entities or other abbreviations) should really always be a last resort after all other avenues of investigation have been exhausted (including government 'black' projects).
As for ghosts, I presented a local radio show a few years back, interviewing a senior figure of a investigative society. He commented that even he/they do not conclusively know what ghosts are, but suggested that they are glimpses into the past as opposed to spirits of the deceased actively roaming the earth???
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Post by CSLR on Mar 23, 2007 13:35:05 GMT
At the end of the day a UFO is exactly that - an Unidentified Flying Object. To then immediately jump to the conclusion that it is from another planet/solar system/dimension etc. etc. is ludicrous. It is simply unidentified in that you do not know what it is. Absolutely, it is a ludicrous assumption, but continual misuse on television and in films has help to distort the meaning in the minds of many people. My favourite UFO story comes from several decades ago when a number of motorists reported seeing a high-speed glowing light fly at low level across a road before disappearing into some trees. It did not take the police long to discover that it was a bulb that had somehow blown out of a street light.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2007 19:19:44 GMT
that put me off going on the tube
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Post by ttran on May 6, 2007 13:42:17 GMT
but suggested that they are glimpses into the past as opposed to spirits of the deceased actively roaming the earth??? Indeed I remember reading something that concurs with that statement. It stated something along the lines of that ghosts are merely events replaying themselves over and over on the anniversary of when they originally happened, and that they aren't 'interactive' (for want of a better word) as such... No doubt that statement has some bearing over the occurrence of ghost trains...
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