Ben
fotopic... whats that?
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Post by Ben on Aug 23, 2006 18:48:52 GMT
I know that, but surely thety wouldnt be out of gauge for the ssr? Say Ammersham - Aldgate - Victoria - Acton - Uxbridge? Having said that, there wouldnt be much point in transporting them by road to another depot just for a rail tour.
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Post by tubeprune on Aug 23, 2006 19:15:12 GMT
Much obliged; thankyou  And unless tubeprune is american, no he doesn't teach 'math'.... Tubeprune is not American (although he lived in New York for a year working on the Subway rehabilitation project) and he can't even do maths, let alone teach it. Well, for starters, the trains will have 3 phase traction and this will not be compatible with certain sections of the SSR, including the Uxbridge branch which, IIRC, still has 33.3Hz track circuits. Then, as with any new fleet, they will be spending the first two years sorting out the bugs so they won't be thinking about tours. There is also the transfer problem, which some of us still seethe about (stupid idea to make rail transfer impossible) and the thought that road transfer is easier because you don't need a safety case to load the car on to a lorry. It's also cheaper, i'm told. Does anyone know what it costs per car? It costs £6000 a train via Network Rail. The downside of road transfer it that it takes longer. You have to test the train in the factory, then uncouple each car, load it, drive it, unload it, rail it, wait for the next one to arrive, couple it, wait 'till 8 cars have arrived, couple them all up and test them all again. It takes several days instead of one. Then there's the contractual issues between LUL and BCV and SSL and (maybe) Tubelines - tour ?- forget it. |
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Aug 23, 2006 22:46:22 GMT
Anyway...what will the performance of these trains be similar to? Accelleration/top speed/braking wise....I appreciate you can't give exact details, but is there any stock that they bear a close resemblance to? Many thanks. 2009 TS acceleration max 1.3m/s 2, braking - service up to 1.14m/s 2, emergency - 1.4m/s 2. Top speed 80km/h. Blimey, nice figures!  |
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Aug 23, 2006 22:56:27 GMT
Well, for starters, the trains will have 3 phase traction and this will not be compatible with certain sections of the SSR, including the Uxbridge branch which, IIRC, still has 33.3Hz track circuits. Signalling isn't my area, but once the SSR has fully migrated for 'S' stock full ATO won't this problem go away? Then, as with any new fleet, they will be spending the first two years sorting out the bugs so they won't be thinking about tours. Have faith! ;D There is also the transfer problem, which some of us still seethe about (stupid idea to make rail transfer impossible) and the thought that road transfer is easier because you don't need a safety case to load the car on to a lorry. It's also cheaper, i'm told. Does anyone know what it costs per car? It costs £6000 a train via Network Rail. Whilst it is going to be difficult to carry out rail transfers in the future (well, alright - impossible!), I am sure that LU's customers will benefit every day and on every journey from the increased interior space. The downside of road transfer it that it takes longer. You have to test the train in the factory, then uncouple each car, load it, drive it, unload it, rail it, wait for the next one to arrive, couple it, wait 'till 8 cars have arrived, couple them all up and test them all again. It takes several days instead of one. Ahh, that will be MRBCV and BTUK's problem then. I won't be losing any sleep over the fact that Bombardier will need to retest their trains at Northumberland Park. The trains would need to undergo full testing regardless of how they arrived on to the line. Then there's the contractual issues between LUL and BCV and SSL and (maybe) Tubelines - tour ?- forget it. I'm with you here, a tour just will not happen! |
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Ben
fotopic... whats that?
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Post by Ben on Aug 23, 2006 23:15:00 GMT
You could always build a link between the Northern City line and the Victoria using the old tunnels around Finsbury Park if a link ever were needed for any reason. That would be in gauge having been built to a main line size, surely?
I'm not suggesting its built merely for a tube tour! But if it were ever desirable to have a link to transfer the stock away or into, would that be a good place?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2006 23:33:27 GMT
You could always build a link between the Northern City line and the Victoria using the old tunnels around Finsbury Park if a link ever were needed for any reason. That would be in gauge having been built to a main line size, surely? I'm not suggesting its built merely for a tube tour! But if it were ever desirable to have a link to transfer the stock away or into, would that be a good place? It wouldn't be cost effective for the occasional stock transfer. |
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Post by tubeprune on Aug 24, 2006 7:01:50 GMT
Let me try to respond to all the different comments in one go:- - Yes, it is intended to put selective close on the S Stock
- Yes, ATO will go on the Uxbridge line eventually. It was suggested it should be first so some testing for 2009TS could be done there but I think that died out.
- Train testing would take place on arrival regardless of delivery method but if the cars all arrive on separate lorries, it takes several days instead of one. It plays havoc with a delivery schedule which was planned on the basis of rail delivery.
- Performance figures are much the same as 92TS.
- RVAR is a real pain - it makes trains look ugly (white gaps on blue bands - stupid), it reduces seats, it makes wiring a nightmare, it causes ordinary people like me to have to bend awkwardly to buy tickets from a compliant machine. I could go on but this would become a rant.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Aug 24, 2006 7:45:21 GMT
- Train testing would take place on arrival regardless of delivery method but if the cars all arrive on separate lorries, it takes several days instead of one. It plays havoc with a delivery schedule which was planned on the basis of rail delivery.
Surely if it is known that the trains cannot be delivered by rail, then a schedule planned on road transfer would be planned? [/li][li]RVAR is a real pain [...] it causes ordinary people like me to have to bend awkwardly to buy tickets from a compliant machine.[/quote] What First Great Western have done with the automatic ticket machines at their stations is have some at low level and some at a higher level. I'm about 5' 5" and can use either one comfortably. I've never tried to use a complaint machine on LU though. |
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Aug 24, 2006 15:13:37 GMT
Let me try to respond to all the different comments in one go:- - Yes, it is intended to put selective close on the S Stock
- Yes, ATO will go on the Uxbridge line eventually. It was suggested it should be first so some testing for 2009TS could be done there but I think that died out.
- Train testing would take place on arrival regardless of delivery method but if the cars all arrive on separate lorries, it takes several days instead of one. It plays havoc with a delivery schedule which was planned on the basis of rail delivery.
- Performance figures are much the same as 92TS.
- RVAR is a real pain - it makes trains look ugly (white gaps on blue bands - stupid), it reduces seats, it makes wiring a nightmare, it causes ordinary people like me to have to bend awkwardly to buy tickets from a compliant machine. I could go on but this would become a rant.
S Stock will not have selective close. It will have a similair system but it is not selective close. Uxbridge will go over to the new signalling system about 1 year (give or take a month) after we first start the migration work. I can confirm that we will not be using any part of the Met for 09ts testing. The fact that the 09 is coming by lorry will add around an extra day to our testing regime. We anticipate that once BTUK are in 'full swing' the cars will arrive in the correct order and will be formed and tested within 24 hours. This then leaves LU to carry out our own tests before releasing the train into passenger service. So it is not significant to timescales. Yes performance figures are the same as 92ts, I was just suprised that you had them thats all! I wasn't remarking on the actual figures, I have them in my bag. RVAR is not a pain if you are mobility impaired. We are a public transport system and we should be making it accessible to all as it gets upgraded. What harm do the white gaps cause to anyone? I would rather the able bodied have to bend a little than the mobility impaired not be able to use the system at all. |
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Post by tubeprune on Aug 24, 2006 16:33:04 GMT
S Stock will not have selective close. It will have a similair system but it is not selective close. Could you expand on this a bit please? You'd be surprised at what's in my bag. |
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prjb
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LU move customers from A to B, they used to do it via 'C'.
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Post by prjb on Aug 24, 2006 19:36:07 GMT
Maybe we could get together with our bags, I'll show you mine if you show me yours!! ;D I genuinely don't want to be obstructive, but I am a bit limited as to what I can say on a public forum about doors and their operation. I am hoping that I can be a little more open in the next month or so when we have completed the current reviews on this with MRSSL and BTUK. You really are rather well informed, I hope we can meet up at a future forum 'get together' and have a good chat! |
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Aug 24, 2006 20:59:55 GMT
I understand you may not be able to answer this, but why are the doors causing so much of a headache?
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Aug 24, 2006 23:30:49 GMT
Oh boy! Where do I start? I can explain to a degree but the explanation is more about the process rather than a specific functionality of the train. Ok, this is my personal opinion and not an official view in any shape, way, or form:
Generally, the VLU have led the way for the SSR. If they got an agreement then it got transposed onto us. We looked at what they did and then with the benefit of hindsight tried to improve on it. However there are some key areas on the VLU which ended up getting very contractual and going the Infraco's way. Sometimes due to timescales, sometimes due to risk, sometimes due to financial decisions, and other times due to the fact they had us over a barrel!
Because the LU SSR team are aware of these areas, we have made sure that we are as watertight as possible when entering negotiations on them. Because BTUK and MRSSL generally expect the same decisions for both VLU and SSR they thought they would get the same results but we have gone in with a much firmer approach. Hence lengthy negotiations and contractual showdown!
LU's main strength here in my opinion are our engineers, these guys are very good at there job. They are higly qualified and experienced but are never too proud to stop and consult with the operators (that's where I come in!). Whilst they work in mysterious ways, they are working to the benefit of the business at large. I respect these guys (and girls!) a lot.
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And unless tubeprune is american, no he doesn't teach 'math'....
