prjb
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LU move customers from A to B, they used to do it via 'C'.
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Post by prjb on Mar 27, 2006 22:10:20 GMT
Sorry, maybe I didn't put that quite right then. I didn't mean to imply that todays training is inferior, it's just that it was a lot more practical back then and less 'touchy feeley' (if thats the right term). We certainly weren't expected to have a SPAD by our trainers and it was unheard of for your manager to say you should expect to have one! I'm all for teaching people correct post-incident procedures but do not believe in telling new drivers that they will definately mess up. In my opinion it makes them worry about not messing up so much that they end up making the mistake they so feared in the first place. We need to emphasise the need to maintain procedures in all circumstances, including post incident.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2006 22:10:40 GMT
The detrainment regulations we work to are nothing to do with security however, and everything to do with an HMRI instruction following the tragic death of a customer at Liverpool Street. It seems strange that the capacity reducing tipping out rule was introduced after just one or two deaths. Yet, there are many deaths each year from people "falling" onto the tracks, and LU seem to be reluctant to introduce more PEDs which would prevent these deaths and the resulting delays and anguish that they cause.
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prjb
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LU move customers from A to B, they used to do it via 'C'.
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Post by prjb on Mar 27, 2006 22:19:17 GMT
It seems strange that the capacity reducing tipping out rule was introduced after just one or two deaths. Yet, there are many deaths each year from people "falling" onto the tracks, and LU seem to be reluctant to introduce more PEDs which would prevent these deaths and the resulting delays and anguish that they cause. [/quote] Ohh! This is a biggy! Again, LU didn't introduce the tipping out rule - it was enforced upon us by the HMRI. The customer didn't get detrained and panic'ed as the train went into the sidings, ran between the cars, fell between the gap and got killed. Tragic. PED's. Hmm. The main reason we do not plan to introduce PED's is cost. The doors themselves are expensive to install and maintain and are outside the scope of the PPP. In addition for most old platforms to take PED's they would need significant strengthening work as they were never designed to take the weight. The other reason is that if these people wish to kill themselves they will find a way PED's or no PED's. Simply going over the top of them would do the trick (unlikely I know).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2006 22:25:16 GMT
Speaking to a displaced CSA who used to work at Kennington. The extra staff for platform duties have been removed by LU. There's only a part-time CSA for the late turn now.
T/op's have been instructed to make PA's and close up as normal. However some drivers do still get out and shut up each carriage, however as this causes a delay I doubt this practice will carry on for long.
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Post by agoodcuppa on Mar 27, 2006 22:25:45 GMT
I seem to remember reading somewhere that platform edge screens and doors can only be used on straight platforms, is that correct?
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prjb
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LU move customers from A to B, they used to do it via 'C'.
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Post by prjb on Mar 27, 2006 22:31:28 GMT
I seem to remember reading somewhere that platform edge screens and doors can only be used on straight platforms, is that correct? Didn't think of that one. It sounds logical but to be honest I am not sure on that.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Mar 27, 2006 23:00:01 GMT
The principal of PEDs is great, and fine on single stock lines, but they can't be used where mixed stock operates ........yeah I know we'll have S stock at some point in the future, but I mean places like Rayners to Uxbridge or where the District/Picc & Jubilee/Met can run over each others tracks......
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2006 23:06:33 GMT
I seem to remember reading somewhere that platform edge screens and doors can only be used on straight platforms, is that correct? PEDs can't be installed on platforms of a small curve radius, but larger curve radii are fine (as at Westminster on the JLE, and at a few stations on the Hong Kong MTR). I'm sure that the Victoria Line could be PED'ed. The main reason we do not plan to introduce PED's is cost. The doors themselves are expensive to install and maintain and are outside the scope of the PPP. The other reason is that if these people wish to kill themselves they will find a way PED's or no PED's. I have read that PEDs are cost effective, just by preventing litter (and passengers) from getting on the track. Platform edge gates would be cheaper and easier to install, but the HSE have outlawed them, as people can climb over them. I do see their point there! If people are going to kill themselves, they are going to kill themselves. But at least if they have to find another way, they won't cause delays to the tube!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2006 23:30:48 GMT
places like Rayners to Uxbridge or where the District/Picc & Jubilee/Met can run over each others tracks...... PEDs are not generally used in open sections of line. On the Jubilee they are only used in tunnel stations, and in the far east where they are widespread they are only used in tunnel stations.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2006 6:42:57 GMT
places like Rayners to Uxbridge or where the District/Picc & Jubilee/Met can run over each others tracks...... PEDs are not generally used in open sections of line. On the Jubilee they are only used in tunnel stations, and in the far east where they are widespread they are only used in tunnel stations. Although PEDs are more likely to be seen underground, they are still quite common overground in the Far East. They are more likely to be seen on driverless systems though, such as Kuala Lumpur PUTRA, Taipei Mucha Line and Tokyo Yurikamome. One of main functions of PEDs in the Far East is to keep the stations air conditioned. Half height platform edge gates are found on virtually all new Japanese metro lines, irrespective of whether the line is overground or underground.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2006 8:23:01 GMT
Personally I can see both sides of the issue: the tipping-out rules are certainly needed to protect people from getting trapped or panicking, but at the same time they needlessly waste capacity that LU doesn't have.
Unfortunately, given the proclivity for modern pax customers to go into Headless Chicken Mode at the wrong time, I suspect that the tipping-out rule will remain in place for good (or until the money is found to expensively modify the interlockings for sidings, or when articulated open-interior rolling stock is introduced).
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Post by frankoids on Mar 28, 2006 9:01:20 GMT
From first post of the thread.... "......About half way between Waterloo and Kennington, the driver informed us VERY LOUDLY four or five times that the next station was Kennington and we were all to change to Platform 4 for a Morden train........" I don't think the driver would intentionally try to deafen you, it can be quite difficult to tell the volume levels of the PA's from the driver's cab and the levels of the PA's do vary from train to train. I wouldn't criticise a driver too much for trying to inform you that the train was terminating and then to tell you the platform required to carry on your journey Ok folks, drivers perspective here. It is a sackable offence to carry passengers into sidings. That is a fact. As Tom says, the proving gubbins for point's etc is to a lesser standard - thus if anything went wrong, the driver & LUL would be in very, very, very deep s**t. Now to Kennington loop - personally I have no knowledge of the area, but i'll accept others statements regarding the signalling arrangements. However, just because it is 'safe' to carry passengers, dosen't make it right. My personal opinion is that the driver in question acted in an unproffesional manner - mind you, it dosen't surprise me on the Northern. Look at their history - instructor operator sacked for watching DVD's instead of his trainee, driver sacked for SPADing while asleep, driver non stops station because he was speeding and couldn't stop in time................yep, quality drivers I can't see how the driver can be said to be unprofessional if he is following guidelines approved by HMRI and LU As a Northern Line driver I also find it disappointing that a fellow driver from LU chooses to 'slag off' in one broad sweep all the drivers of another line.
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Post by CSLR on Mar 28, 2006 10:29:32 GMT
As a Northern Line driver I also find it disappointing that a fellow driver from LU chooses to 'slag off' in one broad sweep all the drivers of another line. Almost all of those type of comments are schoolboy/mess room humour, e.g. "Our team is better than your team". I would not suggest that anybody takes them seriously. From my experience, working with train crews and T/Os on all lines, there is absolutely no difference in their ability. The only variants are those of individual personality which, of course, is a reflection of society in general. Personalities are what make a happy depot, office or factory. However, personality should not be confused with ability; similarly the degree of socialising that takes place at a depot should not be used to measure how good or bad someone is at performing their duties. I have always been impressed with all of the staff on the Northern Line and have often observed their ongoing ability to perform professionally, even when faced with external criticism. I believe that everyone working within LU knows this within their heart and would never seriously criticise their colleagues.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2006 15:55:01 GMT
Going back to the subject of PEDs, remember that until we get air conditioning in the tunnels, the trains usefully shunt cool air onto the platform, which is a godsend in the summer! Now I'm not a PED master, but wouldn't PEDs lessen that effect substantially? Another reason not to introduce PEDs to the entire network.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2006 17:03:31 GMT
Aren't PED's main purpose to reduce the amount of ventilation shafts needed on the JLE??
Sam
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Mar 28, 2006 19:55:31 GMT
It seems I have created a little trouble for myself with a controversial post - it was not my intention come across as slagging off staff from another line. In hindsight I feel my post was worded too strongly - it was only meant in jest, canteen banter if you like. I never intended to cause offence - so if I have, I would like to apologise. On the 'charge' of calling my fellow colleagues 'unproffesional' - I said this while under the impression that the same tipping out rules applied at all locations. I can see now that this thinking was wrong, so again, my apologies for the large foot in my mouth. I will now impose a suspension of 1 hour on myself for the offence of 'trouble making' ;D
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prjb
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LU move customers from A to B, they used to do it via 'C'.
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Post by prjb on Mar 28, 2006 19:58:50 GMT
I forgot about that! I did see an air flow diagram thingy about a year ago which showed how PED's affect the airflow.
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Post by compsci on Mar 30, 2006 17:49:43 GMT
Whilst on the subject of overcarries, a passenger on a Tyne & Wear Metro train terminating at South Gosforth ended up in a depot siding today, and stayed there for three hours.
I missed a few of the details on the TV news, but the station announcements have been suspended because the neighbours complained.
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Phil
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RIP 23-Oct-2018
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Post by Phil on Mar 30, 2006 18:59:43 GMT
I missed a few of the details on the TV news, but the station announcements have been suspended because the neighbours complained. Like at Earl's Court?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2006 19:01:12 GMT
Earls Court is indeed the subject of a noise abatement order...
Sam
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2006 19:47:51 GMT
Whilst on the subject of overcarries, a passenger on a Tyne & Wear Metro train terminating at South Gosforth ended up in a depot siding today, and stayed there for three hours. Well, at least the passenger had time to finish reading their copy of Metro.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2006 9:54:18 GMT
As I'm off sick at the mo, I have just watched /slept through the Northern West End DEV. The T/Op just closes up as normal, no-one uses the porter buttons on each car.
I 'did' the Kennington Loop ages ago. It was one Sunday on the Pickerings' 1956TS, I was chatting to the guard and he invited me to stay on!
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