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Post by q8 on Jan 17, 2006 18:32:53 GMT
Can anyone tell me how far through the Highgate high level tunnels and station abandoned in 1949 one can go before new construction bars the way. Coz I was wondering if a shuttle service could be made between Mill Hill East and Crouch Hill or somewhere along the partially completed infrastructure? It always bugged me and seemd a shame that all that work lies derelict now.
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Phil
In memoriam
RIP 23-Oct-2018
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Post by Phil on Jan 17, 2006 19:34:48 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2006 19:38:21 GMT
I've walked the trackbed a few times. There is a school on the trackbed around Cranley Gardens. Highgate High Level remains; you can still see the markings on the brickwork station buildings where the roundel was positioned. Much of the engineering features remain also. The Ally Pally line remains walkable for much of the route. For a better description of what its like now, point your browser here: underground-history.co.uk/front.phpIt's a while since I walked the trackbed, and am having trouble remembering what I saw... EDIT: Just beaten to it by Phil!!! [he must type quicker than me...]
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2006 22:00:02 GMT
The Parkland Walk between Finsbury Park and Highgate is clear; the only blockage is the need for a flyover to the up side ECML at the southern end.
The Parkland Walk between Park Junction and Alexandra Palace is blocked in five places: a water treatment plant, a school, a small community, another school, and the BR R&D labs.
The Parkland Walk between Mill Hill East and Edgware is clear, despite a minor local difficulty at MHE, all the way to Page Street, where it abruptly ends.
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Post by q8 on Jan 18, 2006 1:34:37 GMT
The Parkland Walk between Finsbury Park and Highgate is clear; the only blockage is the need for a flyover to the up side ECML at the southern end. The Parkland Walk between Park Junction and Alexandra Palace is blocked in five places: a water treatment plant, a school, a small community, another school, and the BR R&D labs. The Parkland Walk between Mill Hill East and Edgware is clear, despite a minor local difficulty at MHE, all the way to Page Street, where it abruptly ends. Thank you TOK. So a Mill Hill East [Or even Edgware] Finsbury Park shuttle would be feasible then?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2006 7:01:37 GMT
The Parkland Walk between Finsbury Park and Highgate is clear; the only blockage is the need for a flyover to the up side ECML at the southern end. The Parkland Walk between Park Junction and Alexandra Palace is blocked in five places: a water treatment plant, a school, a small community, another school, and the BR R&D labs. The Parkland Walk between Mill Hill East and Edgware is clear, despite a minor local difficulty at MHE, all the way to Page Street, where it abruptly ends. Thank you TOK. So a Mill Hill East [Or even Edgware] Finsbury Park shuttle would be feasible then? Sounds good but you'd have to get the land back and dunno if the old environmentalists would be best pleased about that!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2006 11:04:52 GMT
Isn't there a block of flats built across the line just after Mill Hill East?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2006 11:15:15 GMT
Didn't we go through this a few months ago?
The WAGN trains to Moorgate go through the part of Finsbury Park that would have been used by the Northern Heights extension. So no shuttle could get to Finsbury Park without building a new station underground (below the Picc/Vic platforms), which would be amazingly expensive.
Then it would be necessary to rebuild the line from Finsbury Park to East Finchley (? and from MHE to near Edgware) and bring it up to current safety standards.
Surely there would be much more pressing transport infrastructure needs that would be a better use of several hundred millions of taxpayers' money.
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Post by q8 on Jan 18, 2006 11:20:34 GMT
No SK I don't say that my idea should go as far as FP just as far as possible using all the constructed works and infrastructure to enable a service to be run. People in the Crouch hill and surrounding areas may be grateful for a link to Edgware as an alternative to a bus.
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Post by mowat on Jan 18, 2006 11:29:15 GMT
Get rid of the main line services on the Finsbury Park to Moorgate line and run a service from East Finchley to Moorgate via Finsbury Park. Plus relay the line from Mill Hill East to Edgware and run a Finchley Central to Edgware shuttle.
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Post by q8 on Jan 18, 2006 11:51:47 GMT
Get rid of the main line services on the Finsbury Park to Moorgate line and run a service from East Finchley to Moorgate via Finsbury Park. Plus relay the line from Mill Hill East to Edgware and run a Finchley Central to Edgware shuttle. Why not have the whole pig and combine the two?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2006 13:01:07 GMT
Indeed. At the moment I believe Moorgate's service from the ECML, while comprehensive, ends rather early at night and does not run at all on weekends. If the flyover was built and the Northern Heights finally connected to the GN&CR via Crouch Hill, you could then run 313s from East Finchley to Moorgate and give the latter station a weekend and late night service.
The only problems with this scheme would involve retention of access to Highgate Depot, overcoming NIMBYism on the Parkland Walk, finding enough 313s after TfL has pinched them to augment the NLL (and rightly so, IMO), and sorting out the signalling and electrification between Highgate HL and East Finchley.
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Post by mowat on Jan 18, 2006 13:03:35 GMT
Get rid of the main line services on the Finsbury Park to Moorgate line and run a service from East Finchley to Moorgate via Finsbury Park. Plus relay the line from Mill Hill East to Edgware and run a Finchley Central to Edgware shuttle. Why not have the whole pig and combine the two? 1 This would need a four track section from East Finchley to Finchley Central to accomodate High Barnet and Edgware trains, 2 the line from Finchley Central to Edgware is one track line and the track bed would need rebuilding to take 2 tracks, 3 Edgware station would need rebuilding to accomodate a full service rather than a shuttle. While it is possible that it could be done why waste money on in it when there are 2 spare platforms at East Finchley that only get used for Highgate depot movements and does Edgware need two services from central London when a shuttle serving Mill Hill East and Mill Hill (The Hale) would do. PS it's Crouch End not Crouch Hill.
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Post by amershamsi on Jan 18, 2006 13:32:11 GMT
you could have the northern line terminating at Mill Hill East, and have 313s doing High Barnet - Moorgate.
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Post by mowat on Jan 18, 2006 14:34:17 GMT
you could have the northern line terminating at Mill Hill East, and have 313s doing High Barnet - Moorgate. I am talking about a Northern Line only service from East Finchley to Moorgate via Finsbury Park (that means geting rid of the main line trains completely on the Finsbury Park to Moorgate section) and a Northern Line Finchley Central to Edgware shuttle, not a joint LU and NR service. Please remember that the LNER gave these lines (along whith those that now form the eastern end of the Central Line) up to the LPTB because they didn't want them, and that the Finsbury Park to Moorgate line was underground tube line from the start (the Great Northern & City Railway and was taken over by the Metropolitan Railway in 1913? which is how LT got it) and London Transport only gave it to BR in 1976?because it was isolated after the new works programme was abandonded, plus it was built to take full size main line trains, this was because the Great Northern & City wanted to connect the line to the Great Northern Railway (this became part of the LNER in 1923) so as main line trains could run in to Moorgate (what is currently happing).
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Post by dunois on Jan 18, 2006 15:43:58 GMT
Get rid of the main line services on the Finsbury Park to Moorgate line and run a service from East Finchley to Moorgate via Finsbury Park. Plus relay the line from Mill Hill East to Edgware and run a Finchley Central to Edgware shuttle. Why not have the whole pig and combine the two? A better thing in my opinion would be to extend the East London line up to Edgware via Mill Hill East, Highgate and Finsbury Park; a new powerful north-sud line could be created from this idea but that would be very expensive and in my opinion the Chelsea-Hackney tube line must be top priority before this.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2006 15:50:45 GMT
you could have the northern line terminating at Mill Hill East, and have 313s doing High Barnet - Moorgate. I am talking about a Northern Line only service from East Finchley to Moorgate via Finsbury Park (that means geting rid of the main line trains completely on the Finsbury Park to Moorgate section) and a Northern Line Finchley Central to Edgware shuttle, not a joint LU and NR service. Please remember that the LNER gave these lines (along whith those that now form the eastern end of the Central Line) up to the LPTB because they didn't want them, and that the Finsbury Park to Moorgate line was underground tube line from the start (the Great Northern & City Railway and was taken over by the Metropolitan Railway in 1913? which is how LT got it) and London Transport only gave it to BR in 1976?because it was isolated after the new works programme was abandonded, plus it was built to take full size main line trains, this was because the Great Northern & City wanted to connect the line to the Great Northern Railway (this became part of the LNER in 1923) so as main line trains could run in to Moorgate (what is currently happing). If you stop running main line trains to Moorgate, you will not only destroy any chance of maintaining or increasing capacity on the ECML, but you will be crucified by the ridership and the timetable planners, in that order. That's why I think that the services from Moorgate to East Finchley should be run by dual-voltage NR stock (i.e. 313s). Personally I don't think TfL would want to run the line as part of LU and would rather run it as part of LR, and there probably isn't enough 1995TS to do it anyway.
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Post by mowat on Jan 18, 2006 17:10:48 GMT
In that case a comprise, have a Northern Line East Finchley to Moorgate via Finsbury Park service but a joint LU and NR service on the Finsbury Park to Moorgate section like the Bakerloo from Queens Park to Harrow & Wealdstone. Anyway it's a bit like when the Bakerloo's Stanmore branch was axed and the punters had to change at Baker Street for the Jubilee Line.
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Post by q8 on Jan 18, 2006 18:40:46 GMT
Now let us take Dunois and TOK's comments and look at them./ Dunois advocates exactly what I have been saying in that the ELL should be connected to the Moorgate electrics via tunnel from just north of Whitechapel. Then we have TOK with the correct answer re . rolling stock. If the ELL was turned over to NR and the service run with 313's then a train could run from the south coast to the ECML or East Finchley thus making a very useful alternative to Thameslink. This soppy idea of an ELL extension to Dalston is daft as it won't generate the traffic necessary to make it viable. It's just a 'political balloon' really so that those up top are made to seem useful. A link between the ELL and the northern electrics would be something the punters want as when you stand at Whitechapel and see the humanity ascending from the ELL most of them want a H & C train anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2006 20:46:45 GMT
I think there are much more pressing needs for new lines in London than re-building the Northern Heights. Crossrail Line 2/Chelney Line being one that springs to mind!
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Post by dunois on Jan 18, 2006 23:22:01 GMT
I think there are much more pressing needs for new lines in London than re-building the Northern Heights. Crossrail Line 2/Chelney Line being one that springs to mind! Definitely, the Chelney tube line must now be the top priority.
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Post by q8 on Jan 18, 2006 23:37:05 GMT
I think there are much more pressing needs for new lines in London than re-building the Northern Heights. Crossrail Line 2/Chelney Line being one that springs to mind! Definitely, the Chelney tube line must now be the top priority. I quite agree but I hope that one day the abandoned infrastucture can be utilised even if it is donkeys years late.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2006 0:03:55 GMT
Now for my teo penn'thworth...
East London Line - Dalston - Finsbury Pk - Finchely seems reasonably feasible and provides a useful link without excessive expenditure. MHE - Edgware seems to involve a lot of obstacles.
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Post by dunois on Jan 19, 2006 12:06:27 GMT
Definitely, the Chelney tube line must now be the top priority. I quite agree but I hope that one day the abandoned infrastucture can be utilised even if it is donkeys years late. About waht abandoned infrastructure are you talkng about. Are you talking about Charing Cross Jubilee up to Aldwych?
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Post by mowat on Jan 19, 2006 12:34:50 GMT
I quite agree but I hope that one day the abandoned infrastucture can be utilised even if it is donkeys years late. About waht infrastructure are you talkng about. Are you talking about Charing Cross Jubilee up to Aldwych? No the abandoned Northern hieghts lines from East Finchley to Finsbury Park and Mill Hill East to Edgware. Any way it's no good geting to steamed up about possable exstenions we aint the ones hoo make the decisions, and at the end of the day i dont think anything will happen to the Northern hieghts,and the East London Line exstesion to Dalston will go ahead.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2006 19:30:19 GMT
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