Ben
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Post by Ben on Nov 11, 2007 12:33:31 GMT
Does anyone have any reports about the heathrow tunnel collapse in the 70's? I believe it used the NATM. Any written sources would be highly appreciated; I'm doing a technical report on tunneling for my degree and wated to rope in the one thing I knwo anything about; the tube! Many thanks to all Btw, any other reports on tunnel collapses underground-wise would also be extremely welcome! Ben
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Nov 11, 2007 12:51:05 GMT
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Post by Tubeboy on Nov 11, 2007 13:13:02 GMT
Wasn't the NATM [New Austrian tunnelling method] the problems for Hex, rather than the Picc extension?
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Post by Harsig on Nov 11, 2007 13:17:31 GMT
Wasn't the NATM [New Austrian tunnelling method] the problems for Hex, rather than the Picc extension? Definitely, although the proximity to the Picc tunnels meant that the service was suspended for a time I believe.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2007 13:55:14 GMT
the problems with the NATM also caused the suspension of the JLE tunnelling because of the similarity of tunnelling methods. It opened a crater between the runways at Heathrow I believe.
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Post by tubeprune on Nov 11, 2007 14:37:12 GMT
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Post by Tubeboy on Nov 11, 2007 15:22:18 GMT
Wasn't the NATM [New Austrian tunnelling method] the problems for Hex, rather than the Picc extension? Definitely, although the proximity to the Picc tunnels meant that the service was suspended for a time I believe. Yes, I recollect now, thanks Harsig.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2007 15:42:46 GMT
I was working at T123 at the time. The big hole in the ground happened to the west of T123 which meant only the loop needed to be suspended. We had to help at Hatton Cross with the replacement bus service to T4. Can't remember exactly when it was reopened but I think it was at the start of '95.
DOC
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2007 23:01:52 GMT
According to my trainer, there is a "massive area which could fit a 747 in" somewhere near our room at Heathrow Central, which they had to dig because of the 1994 collapse. I'll ask to see it, if possible, on Tuesday and get a few snaps.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2007 13:34:12 GMT
Theres a chapter in the book "Railway Blunders" by Adrian Vaughan (Ian Allan Publishing ISBN 0 7110 2836 2) on the 94 Tunnel collapse.
From what i can gather, the problem wasn't with the method of building itself, but the lack of experience the contractors had with it.
The fines handed down to BB and Geoconsult from H&S seem to suggest this is the case.
Off topic but theres also chapter on the kaffuffle getting planning permission for the ELL extension. Quite interesting.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Nov 27, 2007 21:44:28 GMT
I would be quite reluctant to take anything Adrian Vaughan writes with anything other than a pinch of salt. A number of his other books have been little more than a vehicle for him to express his opinions that anything new is bad and the old steam age railway was perfectly safe, efficient and fit for purpose, such that no modernisation was ever needed.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2007 8:10:14 GMT
Agreed Tom, it is a bit like that sometimes.
However it gives a decent background to this incident - the only chapter where he doesn't mention BR blue I think!!!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2007 11:35:28 GMT
This disaster could not have been prevented by installing semaphore signals, or by painting the carriages in chocolate and cream, so Vaughan probably gives a reasonably accurate account.
It seems to have been a combination of incompetence (spraying concrete 3 cm thick instead of 30 cm) and poor practice (having the contractor certify its own work).
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North End
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Post by North End on Dec 2, 2007 20:45:10 GMT
Does anyone have any reports about the heathrow tunnel collapse in the 70's? I believe it used the NATM. Any written sources would be highly appreciated; I'm doing a technical report on tunneling for my degree and wated to rope in the one thing I knwo anything about; the tube! Many thanks to all Btw, any other reports on tunnel collapses underground-wise would also be extremely welcome! Ben The HSE report can be ordered from the TSO shop in Kingsway. IIRC it's not too expensive. HTH.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Dec 2, 2007 20:59:40 GMT
This disaster could not have been prevented by installing semaphore signals, or by painting the carriages in chocolate and cream, so Vaughan probably gives a reasonably accurate account. Maybe... but as his books normally need his spin on things, I wouldn't be too sure. The latter is standard practice - it's known as self-assurance and any good contractor should be able to do it.
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Post by railtechnician on Dec 2, 2007 21:32:16 GMT
This disaster could not have been prevented by installing semaphore signals, or by painting the carriages in chocolate and cream, so Vaughan probably gives a reasonably accurate account. Maybe... but as his books normally need his spin on things, I wouldn't be too sure. The latter is standard practice - it's known as self-assurance and any good contractor should be able to do it. Yes I agree but it does mean that there is no independent assessment of quality! I recall S,E & C gaining the Lloyd's Register of Quality and continuing to produce documents awash with spelling errors and other mistakes. Self assurance quite simply will never be as good as independent assurance but of course it is cheaper!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2007 8:40:36 GMT
This disaster could not have been prevented by installing semaphore signals, or by painting the carriages in chocolate and cream, so Vaughan probably gives a reasonably accurate account. Maybe... but as his books normally need his spin on things, I wouldn't be too sure. The latter is standard practice - it's known as self-assurance and any good contractor should be able to do it. By my reading, Vaughan usually gets the facts reasonably accurate. But his comments on the facts can be very strange, as he seems to believe that railways were perfect around 1936. And I still feel that self-assurance is very poor practice. Independent certification is a better guard against poor work.
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Dec 3, 2007 10:12:51 GMT
This disaster could not have been prevented by installing semaphore signals, or by painting the carriages in chocolate and cream, so Vaughan probably gives a reasonably accurate account. Maybe... but as his books normally need his spin on things, I wouldn't be too sure. I've gotta agree with Tom - Adrian posts on one of the other forums that I flirt around with and it's defiantly/definately the 'Great Western Way' of doing things. Having said that he does know an awful lot about the ops of that era, but certainly a Swindon man (or Reading if you take into account the signalling).
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Ben
fotopic... whats that?
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Post by Ben on Dec 31, 2007 3:35:35 GMT
My most humble apologies there! Must have been thinking of something else. Anyway, have finally got round to doing the essay on tunnel collapses now. Some interesting points have been raised here that I'll definitely explore further. If anyone has anymore knowledge about railway tunnel failures in the London area I'd be extremely welcome to hear it. I think the point of the essay was to test literary skills, see if I can write a coherent sentence without whimpering etc, which, to be honest, I stand sod all chance of doing at 3:30 am . But either way the more points I have to analyse and sources to compare and contrast the better.
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Jan 6, 2008 22:28:48 GMT
I've gotta agree with Tom - Adrian posts on one of the other forums that I flirt around with and it's defiantly/definately the 'Great Western Way' of doing things. Having said that he does know an awful lot about the ops of that era, but certainly a Swindon man (or Reading if you take into account the signalling). I've met and driven under Adrian's signalling and he is one of the most self-effacing blokes I've met. Even when signalling he is far less bombastic than most (sorry Harsig, JTD, somerhimpson, MSO, I've never worked with you!). But as with all signalmen he tends to be a control freak and has strong opinions as to what's safe and what isn't. He has great powers of analysis and, unlike Wolmar, has actually worked the system so sees it from the inside. And records do tend to show that GWR methods led to less 'incidents' than the others so he may have a point. But in 1936 (see above) labour was cheap and technology expensive: enough men to do the job properly is a concept that seems to have escaped modern transport bosses due to the insane chase for profit above all else (including safety at times).
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