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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2005 1:28:10 GMT
I notice both the Evening Standard and the BBC have picked up on this story. news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4637811.stmFour paramedics suffered electric shocks as they treated a man under a Piccadilly line Tube train. One paramedic burnt her arm and the others were treated for shock after working on the tracks at King's Cross station, north London, on Wednesday.
They were treated at the Royal London Hospital and released. London Ambulance described the injuries as "very rare".
London Underground (LU) has launched an inquiry and said initial reports showed the traction current was off.
The Assembly's Lib Dem transport spokesman, Geoff Pope, criticised the London Underground.
"This is a deeply disturbing and, quite frankly, disgraceful incident that could have led to the death of emergency staff who were trying to save someone's life.
"An urgent public investigation must be held into both how this potentially fatal incident took place and how London Underground will make sure that this never happens again."
A London Ambulance Service spokeswoman said: "It is not clear how it occurred and it is being investigated by the London Ambulance Service, the Health and Safety Executive and London Underground." Now, I have it on good authority that the current was definitely discharged, and an SCD had been laid. Can any of our technical people explain (to a technical dunce like me!) how this could be possible? Is it simply just residual current remaining in the juice rails or is it something more sinister?
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Post by q8 on Jul 1, 2005 3:07:59 GMT
I personally had a similar thing way way back and was told that certain equipment on trains holds a charge or potential which takes time to leak away unless there is a built in "dump" feature.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2005 9:49:28 GMT
What could have happened, is that a train behind the one involved in the one under, was over the live rail section, taking juice from the live section, bridging the gap and making the supposedly 'dud' section live. Dunno about how the sections are arranged in the Kings X Pic area, but this is my theory. Probably wrong, but...?
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Post by q8 on Jul 1, 2005 11:36:30 GMT
I think you might be right Mr TO92. What happened to the idea that rail gap indicators be fitted with trainstops?
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Jul 1, 2005 14:21:34 GMT
It's a principle change to the signalling so would need massive work.
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Harsig
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Post by Harsig on Jul 1, 2005 16:42:44 GMT
I think you might be right Mr TO92. What happened to the idea that rail gap indicators be fitted with trainstops? Probably thrown out on the very sensible grounds that it vastly increases the chance of a train being brought to a stand while bridging the gap, which is the worst possible scenario.
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Post by citysig on Jul 1, 2005 19:11:50 GMT
Now, I have it on good authority that the current was definitely discharged, and an SCD had been laid. Can any of our technical people explain (to a technical dunce like me!) how this could be possible? Without going into too much detail here, it wouldn't be the first time in recent times where the juice has not come completely off.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2005 1:51:00 GMT
I was chatting to a Picc controller this evening at Earl's Court who told me his version of what happened. Obviously I can't go into details, but I suspect that certain things in that area will change!
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Post by q8 on Jul 2, 2005 2:17:52 GMT
I was chatting to a Picc controller this evening at Earl's Court who told me his version of what happened. Obviously I can't go into details, but I suspect that certain things in that area will change! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Oh Hob-nobbing with the high and mighty now are we? (Watch it lads he's a company spy )
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Post by Colin on Jul 2, 2005 3:08:07 GMT
What could have happened, is that a train behind the one involved in the one under, was over the live rail section, taking juice from the live section, bridging the gap and making the supposedly 'dud' section live. Dunno about how the sections are arranged in the Kings X Pic area, but this is my theory. Probably wrong, but...? While you have a good theory, SCD's were laid at both ends of the incident train. If the power was restored, the SCD's would have caused the breakers in the sub station to open. I got that from someone high up in the safety directors staff chain. The most likely source is believed to be from the trains batteries, being 50 volts. Whilst not a very high voltage, it would be a shock if you didn't expect it. As Alan says, and going on what my mole told me, this incident coupled with the Russel Square fiasco a few months back, has certainly got the senior peoples attention.
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Post by mandgc on Jul 3, 2005 0:12:22 GMT
Rail Gap Indicators - Could the RGIs, when illuminated, put the signal in rear to Danger ?
(PS- "Kings Cross, North London" - where is the other KX, other than Sidney ?)
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Post by Bill on Jul 3, 2005 6:31:29 GMT
if its anything sensible and an idea from an operational member of staff, the chances are LUL won't do it. Unless of course it saves them money.
For example; it's cheaper to kill a few people every so often than it is to pay a guard to work each train. OPO is not safe - with or without in-cab monitors - a driver should be watching the road not looking at the platform as he pulls away.
Also, LU's constantly mind-boggling approach to SPADS, patronising drivers with crazy "procedures" like station staff asking drivers what the aspect is before they can proceed and if its danger, the SA standing there until it clears! They seriously tried to bring this in on the Bakerloo and threatened to stand down drivers who refused to sign for it!! Luckily the unions soon got it chucked out. The latest ruse is a competition for drivers to design bronze, silver, gold and platinum lapel badges to be issued to drivers depending on how long they go without hitting a stick! The only thing this will encourage is higher ebay membership amongst drivers!!
Treating us like adults and taking into account ideas from the drivers themselves is too much like common sense, ie sensible anti-SPAD measures like resighting of problem signals, adding repeaters in some areas, training new drivers to put their key to int when stopped at a stick, scheduling turns so they are not so sleep inducing: ie stop making us do a Harrow and two tunnels (Queens Parks) on the second half of a full length dead early turn etc etc. Right i'm sidetracking here, back on point...
Not sure of the logistics involved in putting signals at rear to danger, but i expect a risk assesment will outweigh the cost (ie: it's probably cheaper to burn a few paramedics now and then).
Also while loosely talking about one unders, i've always wondered why even though theres PEDS on the Jubilee extension, there is also a suicide pit! Wouldnt any prospective suicide cases just make there way to somewhere without them? Sorry, thats just always puzzled me. ;D
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Post by Tom on Jul 3, 2005 10:24:14 GMT
Rail Gap Indicators - Could the RGIs, when illuminated, put the signal in rear to Danger ? You could use a contact of the Current On Line Relay in the signal control, not particularly difficult but again a principle change = £££
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2005 14:29:59 GMT
why does everything come down to money safety should always come first these bastards holding the purse strings need hanging ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
p.s in bad mood having doing 3 weeks of solid nights
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Post by Tom on Jul 3, 2005 15:50:31 GMT
At the end of the day (and we could debate this until the cows come home) we have to look at the Cost Benefit Analysis to support such a change.
Moving RGI's, Adding extra contacts to circuits to support the change in principle, possibly repositioning rail gaps so that they're not located somewhere in the overlap, possibly changing overlaps to meet new standards etc etc does not come cheap, and there is a shortage of the required staff to both design, install, and commission the work, let alone produce the assurance paperwork that is required for such a change.
This is assuming that it was a train bridging the gap, which it may not have been. If it wasn't and RGI's were moved, a lot of money will have been spent, the problem not eliminated and for the likelihood that this will happen again, is spending tens of millions (which is what it will cost to roll such a series of mods out across the network), is it really worth it? Not really, IMO.
P.S. Sorry to hear about the nights Pat.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2005 17:01:47 GMT
p.s in bad mood having doing 3 weeks of solid nights Never mind, Pat! I'm on dead lates (as usual) so if you want to pop in to ECT smoking room, I'll bring a pack of cards! If you don't want to be bored, I can pull some wires out from signals in awkward places through the city if you want? ;D ( note: the above comment was meant to be my attempt at humour. I accept no responsibility howsoever caused for any signal failures! )
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Post by piccadillypilot on Jul 3, 2005 17:38:04 GMT
why does everything come down to money safety should always come first these bastards holding the purse strings need hanging Because everything has a price and since total safety is impossible a line has to be drawn somewhere. The amount of money spent on safety on the railway is already significantly more than in almost any other area of activity in the UK. The most dangerous place, in terms of fatal accidents, is the home. Some 4000 people die every year of whom some 3000 are over 65. Info from here.Hadn't noticed, honest.
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Post by q8 on Jul 3, 2005 19:03:40 GMT
Simple solution. If a trains passes an RGI that is illuminated and bridges the gap and occupies the track circuit in rear of the RGI then automatically current goes off in BOTH sections.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2005 20:51:49 GMT
p.s in bad mood having doing 3 weeks of solid nights Never mind, Pat! I'm on dead lates (as usual) so if you want to pop in to ECT smoking room, I'll bring a pack of cards! If you don't want to be bored, I can pull some wires out from signals in awkward places through the city if you want? ;D ( note: the above comment was meant to be my attempt at humour. I accept no responsibility howsoever caused for any signal failures! ) thanks alan and by the way we have had some intresting failures in the middle in the last couple of weeks
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Post by Dmitri on Jul 4, 2005 6:22:23 GMT
and by the way we have had some intresting failures in the middle in the last couple of weeks Wirevorous rats ?
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Post by yellowsignal on Jul 5, 2005 19:34:08 GMT
I know this is a very delicate question to people in the know, but was it human error, a structural technical fault (i.e. a technical fault that could happen more often) or just a fluke?
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Jul 5, 2005 22:12:21 GMT
There's several different rumours doing the rounds at the moment - personally i'm gonna wait for an official answer.
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Post by igelkotten on Jul 6, 2005 10:50:48 GMT
Has any precautionary notices to LU or InfraCo staff been issued? Any new temporary restrictions on track access, or requirements for current testing,or anythign on those lines?
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Post by DWS on Jul 6, 2005 15:49:28 GMT
Has any precautionary notices to LU or InfraCo staff been issued? Any new temporary restrictions on track access, or requirements for current testing,or anythign on those lines? A notice has been issused that before any Emergency Services, i.e. Paramedics, Firefighters, etc go on to the Track, a Current Rail Indicator Device ( CRID ) must be used to test that Traction Current is OFF.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2005 17:29:51 GMT
nope we have had no notices about that you should always check the current with a CRID or worse case use a meter, you should never ever relie on the line controller or licester square (place where the substations are controlled from)
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Post by Dmitri on Jul 6, 2005 19:07:59 GMT
nope we have had no notices about that you should always check the current with a CRID or worse case use a meter ...or, as a very last resort, throw a crowbar across the current rails. If it flies up - something is definitely wrong here ;D.
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Post by Colin on Jul 6, 2005 23:14:15 GMT
Management have been solidly silent on this issue. Like I said there's plenty of rumours, one of which is that the Picc drivers are considering 'downing tools' until their safety 'on or about the track' is guaranteed. Personally - I don't blame 'em.
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Post by q8 on Jul 7, 2005 1:04:13 GMT
Management have been solidly silent on this issue. ------------------------------------------------------------------------
That is always a clue that "somebody has blundered" and that somebody was in management. Down to bloody penny-pinching again I suppose.
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