Tom
Administrator
Signalfel?
Posts: 4,100
|
Post by Tom on Dec 30, 2007 16:15:06 GMT
If there are operators refusing to work, surely the solution to that is to P45 them? And how would that work in an industry where there is a policy which permits an individual to refuse to work on the grounds of Health and Safety'? Never mind the waste of time and money in training a new Train Operator as indicated by Prakash. And furthermore, would you as a fare-paying passenger want a train cancelled because LU can't cover the duties of a person who was sacked?
|
|
|
Post by swedishblue on Dec 30, 2007 16:39:25 GMT
And furthermore, would you as a fare-paying passenger want a train cancelled because LU can't cover the duties of a person who was sacked? The trains are usually cancelled because the person who the company would love to sack for persistently screwing the service, has yet again decided he/she needs a PNR on their last trip or doesn't have enough time to finish their duty because they are running 3 minutes late and refusing to continue! Why let a handful of individuals hold the company and customers to ransom unless they get their own way. Get shot of them and get people fully trained up who want to do the job. I seem to remember a Professional Train Operators Agreement, which the T/Ops got extra money for. Some people may find it enlightening to stand on a platform when a crew relief should be taking place. You won't see the T/Op there 2 minutes before his pick up, as required(not on all lines or at all locations). Or in the case of those running a few minutes late, watch them argue with the DMT on the phone for 10 minutes and totally screw the rest of the service (and their colleagues in the process as has happened to me on many occasions)!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2007 17:20:22 GMT
The PTOA does not superceed the Framework Agreement, which states "NO COMPULSORY OVERTIME - so when the normal duty length has finished, and there is no service emergency, and a relief is not available the train must be worked to the nearest depot or siding" (or words to that effect). All the while we have these agreements people are entitled to work to them.
In my opinion there currently is only one driver on the C&H (whose name i shan't mention) that is a complete waste of space in the p*sstaking stakes. Until fairly recently there were 2, which shows that eventually those who don't tow the line will be rumbled. Those merely following the Framework Agreement are all still there - and rightly so.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2007 17:31:44 GMT
I read it somewhere-I'll try and dig it out. For some reason the Circle drivers were on strike so District trains and crews were used. If only I can find it... Is it true that most Circle P stock had O stock motors at the inner ends left over from the Uxbridge trains? (CP)DM-T-(CO)DM+(CO)DM-T-(CP)DM It is strange that many trailers were scrapped, weren't a load converted out of Q38 trailers in 1958-60 and 1962? Was it the Q38s that got scrapped or just whatever was at hand? Finally....7 car CO/CP? How common was this? They must have run as DM-DM+DM-T-DM+DM-DM. That would need a huge amount of 2 car units! They used to have a couple running on the Uxbridge service back in the day!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2007 17:42:45 GMT
I was a driver on the District from 74, and the CO/CP make up for a 7 car was from the west end DM DM DM DM DM T DM, this was not uncommon at all for the CO/CP make up, in fact for a short time I also remember having some 6 car CO/CP that were all motor cars, I remember they used to fly pretty quick. As for doing the Circles on a Sunday it made a nice change sitting in a nice warm cab for 4 rounders, and still having travelling time to book off at Parsons Green at the end of the duty, so not too bad then. Just would like to wish you all a happy and safe New Year, and all the best for your jobs and the underground for 2008.
|
|
Oracle
In memoriam
RIP 2012
Writing is such sweet sorrow: like heck it is!
Posts: 3,234
|
Post by Oracle on Dec 30, 2007 18:04:53 GMT
It is strange that many trailers were scrapped, weren't a load converted out of Q38 trailers in 1958-60 and 1962? Was it the Q38s that got scrapped or just whatever was at hand? Did they not become R Stock DMs? I once asked why LURS preserved a Q35 trailer instead of a driving car, and the answer was that Q Stock DMs had been preserved and so a trailer should be. Good decision, with respect, now.
|
|
Oracle
In memoriam
RIP 2012
Writing is such sweet sorrow: like heck it is!
Posts: 3,234
|
Post by Oracle on Dec 30, 2007 18:20:20 GMT
Back on topic, I remember when we were up in Town one Sunday a few months back that the relief driver was not waiting for the Circle we were on at Edgware Road. He was nowhere to be seen. The chap up front then had a go using his mobile, and decided to grab his bag and walk down the platform. Eventually, Mr Relief turned up...that put us a few minutes late. I am sure that I never saw this in say the Seventies on the Picc...at Acton Town say the relief was there waiting for the train and keys were left in so the relief used to hand his key over. This only fell apart when drivers such as Brian P..., who have long since left LU, had their keys chrome-plated and so they had to take their key out, which caused confusion as you can imagine, with the unofficial convention outlined.
There used to be a particular 'pain' at Hemel Hempstead Garage on London Country, who was a former red bus driver that swapped for the green area but took his inner-London attitudes with him. Management wanted to get shot of him, even though/especially as he was the Union rep. He was late, used to drink before duties, and took a lot of "sickies". When he was genuinely off work for a time with a bad back the management tried to serve him with his papers but he had two days to go before he was back at work off sick leave. Bad mistake, as they jumped the gun by two days. That meant that the papers were ineffective. A tip-off to the Police about his drinking also failed as when they pounced on him a mile down the road from the garage whilst drivign a Green Line coach he passed as he had not any alcohol that day (perhaps 'advised' by a colleague?). In the end I think that they cut the rug from under him, make his life as difficult as possible with duties, and scrutinise his lateness record. I feel so sorry for LU staff who feel as though one or two colleagues feel that they can get away with their own agendas, and hang the consequences.
|
|
|
Post by swedishblue on Dec 30, 2007 18:36:57 GMT
Back on topic, I remember when we were up in Town one Sunday a few months back that the relief driver was not waiting for the Circle we were on at Edgware Road. He was nowhere to be seen. The chap up front then had a go using his mobile, and decided to grab his bag and walk down the platform. Eventually, Mr Relief turned up...that put us a few minutes late. I am sure that I never saw this in say the Seventies on the Picc...at Acton Town say the relief was there waiting for the train and keys were left in so the relief used to hand his key over. This only fell apart when drivers such as Brian P..., who have long since left LU, had their keys chrome-plated and so they had to take their key out, which caused confusion as you can imagine, with the unofficial convention outlined. It's very rare to come into a platform now and actually see the relieving driver waiting to pick up, although there are a few conscientious T/Ops about. I also agree with what Prakash says regarding the Framework agreement relating to overtime, to a point. There are some people who think that as the train is a couple or 3 minutes late, that this means they will be on overtime and therefore do not have to take the train to it's booked destination. I believe that in most cases, if the train is drastically late, it will get turned short. If not, as in the case of a Circle, it goes around. I stood at Edgware Road one day and watched a T/Op refuse to go around as he stated it was four minutes late. What i later noticed on checking the timetable, was that on that particular trip the train had a total of 3.5 minutes stand time for the complete Circle. I feel that the DMT and Controller should have dug their heels in and instructed him to take it round. Unfortunately, they give in, in order to keep things moving and the train went to Hammersmith. The following day, said T/Op was totally amused with himself about how he refused to go around, even when the stand time was pointed out to him. I don't agree with compulsory overtime, but i do feel that there are some staff who need some serious performance managing and who are giving their colleagues a bad reputation.
|
|
|
Post by railtechnician on Dec 30, 2007 18:46:26 GMT
Prakash makes a lot of sense and has nailed some key points in his appraisal and follow up in this thread.
There is one thing that he omiited to say which is a truth known to every experienced employee on the Underground. Quite simply if every employee does his/her job following every rule and regulation to the letter the railway would come to a standstill. Whatever anyone thinks of LU employees the company is a family of like minded and dedicated souls for the most part and the key to running the services for decades has been the good will and the morale of employees with common sense management. Every now and then the balance gets tilted too far one way or another for reasons which are not always obvious but that is when the trouble starts.
|
|
|
Post by Tomcakes on Dec 30, 2007 19:28:42 GMT
And furthermore, would you as a fare-paying passenger want a train cancelled because LU can't cover the duties of a person who was sacked? The trains are usually cancelled because the person who the company would love to sack for persistently screwing the service, has yet again decided he/she needs a PNR on their last trip or doesn't have enough time to finish their duty because they are running 3 minutes late and refusing to continue! Why let a handful of individuals hold the company and customers to ransom unless they get their own way. Get shot of them and get people fully trained up who want to do the job. I seem to remember a Professional Train Operators Agreement, which the T/Ops got extra money for. Some people may find it enlightening to stand on a platform when a crew relief should be taking place. You won't see the T/Op there 2 minutes before his pick up, as required(not on all lines or at all locations). Or in the case of those running a few minutes late, watch them argue with the DMT on the phone for 10 minutes and totally screw the rest of the service (and their colleagues in the process as has happened to me on many occasions)! That's what I think - trains are being cancelled if drivers are refusing to work, but at least if they were P45d then there would be Obviously there are occasions where drivers refusing to work are reasoned. It's good that the railway industry doesn't automatically sack drivers who refuse to go - whereas in the bus industry a driver is told to take an unroadworthy bus or go down the job centre. However, those who are blatently taking the wee ought to be disciplined.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2007 23:19:16 GMT
It's very rare to come into a platform now and actually see the relieving driver waiting to pick up, although there are a few conscientious T/Ops about. It's not rare on the District line. Don't forget that in many cases where the relief driver is not in position, the driver who eventually turns up is actually a spare, and the reason he's late is because the duty manager didn't give him the job soon enough!
|
|
|
Post by joeapprenticesuper on Dec 30, 2007 23:44:56 GMT
its strating to get silly the circ line we all know why ect branchs points but they should get more cover staff thats the simple idea but lu are axing loads of jobs and wana save costs so we all have to have the worst service in the world theres allways a exscuse, me and my mate at south harrow now have bets what will the exscuse be this time on the circle line, they need to get it sorted or even better take away the circle line all together iv never known a day where sum thing dont go wrong liv st aldgate change at aldgate east, thtas the onlly reson it is still there cuz of that small part its pointless and wasts my time keep havin to get up and change the CIB
|
|
metman
Global Moderator
5056 05/12/1961-23/04/2012 RIP
Posts: 7,400
|
Post by metman on Dec 31, 2007 1:22:51 GMT
dave-blimey, all motor CO/CPs must of flown. They ran as DM-DM+DM-DM on the ELL for a bit and the depot crews had to disconnect some of the equipment (which the train crews reconnected!!) because they zipped around! There would have been alot of cabs on a 7 car train-bet they motored too! Best of luck to you too for the New Year!
Oracle-out of the 183 Q38 trailers that were built, 132 became R38 Driving motors, 25 were converted into COP trailers to increase (mainly Circle trains) the 2 car to 3 car units and 3 sadly didn't survive The War. The rest carried on in Q stock trains (along with the 25 Q38 Motors) until 1971 when withdrawal took place. There was a plan for all the remaining Q38 cars to be marshalled for the East London service running as DM-T-T-DM but the C69 introduction covered all bases and resulted in a fair amount of CO/CP stock going aswell!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2007 7:54:54 GMT
Prakash makes a lot of sense and has nailed some key points in his appraisal and follow up in this thread. There is one thing that he omiited to say which is a truth known to every experienced employee on the Underground. Quite simply if every employee does his/her job following every rule and regulation to the letter the railway would come to a standstill. Whatever anyone thinks of LU employees the company is a family of like minded and dedicated souls for the most part and the key to running the services for decades has been the good will and the morale of employees with common sense management. Every now and then the balance gets tilted too far one way or another for reasons which are not always obvious but that is when the trouble starts. Point taken, and totally agree. Perhaps a better relationship between drivers/controllers/managers would see more co-operation in this area? Joe, thats the longest sentence i've ever read - can't you punctuate as it's a nightmare to read?!!! ;D
|
|
|
Post by Tubeboy on Dec 31, 2007 8:49:42 GMT
I would love to see his logbook entries and EIRF's! ;D
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2007 17:22:35 GMT
Sorry if off topic but in reply to metman, yes the 6 car co/cps did fly. Do you remember the uniform train? Drove that one Sunday as a 5 car R stock, 5 cars as we had to deliver uniform to New Cross depot as well as plenty of other places and from what I recall any train longer would not fit in the depot road we were booked into. If only I had a digital camera back then!!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2008 1:57:58 GMT
My take on this is - i turn up for work on time everyday , and i don't mind what happens during my shift , i just want to go home on time. I understand that sometimes things go 'pear shaped' and a bit of overtime is unavoidable - sometimes a lot of overtime , but where things get messy is when the late running is every day , and the managers/controllers just expect you to keep going - and if you don't want to or perhaps can't because of family commitments , then you're perceived as a trouble maker. consequently i feel a great deal of sympathy for any driver that is put in this position day in , day out. What on Earth happened to work/life balance. I think what could eliminate a lot of the problems is better , or smarter scheduling , coupled with fully staffed depots.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2008 14:56:51 GMT
I think the nail has just been hit perfectly on the head. Well put 78revolutions.
|
|
metman
Global Moderator
5056 05/12/1961-23/04/2012 RIP
Posts: 7,400
|
Post by metman on Jan 1, 2008 16:31:28 GMT
Sounds good to me too! Let's hope this approach can be sort!
dave, I don't remember the 5 car R stock, it was a little before my time. When the R stock was delivered it came as DM-NDM-NDM-UNDM+UNDM-DM(+UNDM-DM in peaks). In 1971 they became 7 cars. How did this work? Some trains would have have cabs in the middle and some wouldn't have I guess? DM-NDM-NDM-NDM-UNDM/DM+UNDM-DM. You would have driven a 5 car set with cabs at either end. Were there fixed coupling points or was it just random?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2008 19:13:10 GMT
The 5 car R stock I remember was also ran on a Sunday on the Edgware Road / Wimbledon service. I worked that once as a guard. From what I can recall it was when we had the CO/CP with the collapsed wheels and being short of stock they uncoupled the 2 cars from the east end of the R stock make up (west end or A end DM NDM NDM NDM DM NDM NDM east end or D end) or car numbers 211** 233** 234** 235** 226** 235** 226**. It was when we had the handwritten emergency timetable for the District line, not only were we short of trains, (CO/CP's) but also very short of train crew. The other formation of the R stock was DM NDM NDM NDM NDM NDM DM or car numbers 211** 232** 232**( the third car had an A under the number, this car also had the F.I.S under the seat)233** 234** 235**226**. The 211** cars had a purely mechanical coupler as I expect you know. Between cars 233** and 234** you had a cock on the outside of the car which you operated with a control key to uncouple between those two cars. I recall being at Ealing Common depot one day when the depot crews tried to uncouple an R stock. As the motorman notched like hell in the cab the fitters desperatly tried to pull the coupler apart with a crow bar as the train moved along. Great fun.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2008 22:05:06 GMT
Little update on the Rstock it was the 233** that had the F.I.S under the seat, not the 232A car. Bit strange that with a control defect you could and I did once, end up with the guard pushing you out from the back with 2 motors pushing 5 dead cars.
|
|
metman
Global Moderator
5056 05/12/1961-23/04/2012 RIP
Posts: 7,400
|
Post by metman on Jan 2, 2008 0:59:36 GMT
Sounds like great fun!!
|
|
|
Post by railtechnician on Jan 2, 2008 6:50:37 GMT
Little update on the Rstock it was the 233** that had the F.I.S under the seat, not the 232A car. Bit strange that with a control defect you could and I did once, end up with the guard pushing you out from the back with 2 motors pushing 5 dead cars. Pushing from the back reminds me of something I saw at Liverpool Street years ago. C69 stock on the outer rail, instead of the train pulling away normally it was most definitely pushing from the last car so much so that it looked likely to derail itself in the process. You could actually see it lifting in its attempt to push the rest of the train. I'm not sure but I believe it must've been a faulty train although it was in service because my understanding of multiple units is that all the motors are driven together. I can certainly never recall seeing it before or since on passenger stock.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2008 16:30:26 GMT
It seems to have escalated today with half (semi?)circle being suspended!
CIRCLE LINE: Suspended clockwise with severe delays anti-clockwise due to staff shortage.
HAMMERSMITH & CITY LINE: Severe delays are occurring between Edgware Road and Hammersmith due to staff shortage.
pretty poor really...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2008 16:53:41 GMT
Well considering that loads more people than average are relying on the Circle and H&C to get to Paddington, to take the HEx to Heathrow today, you'd think that it would make sense to make sure there were enough staff to cover this weekend...
My question is; why bother running a service at all? Suspend it, and let Metrodebt do much needed engineering works that would just be done on another weekend anyway?
|
|
Chris M
Global Moderator
Forum Quizmaster
Always happy to receive quiz ideas and pictures by email or PM
Posts: 19,402
|
Post by Chris M on Feb 9, 2008 20:39:23 GMT
Victoria was heaving with people when I went through earlier - the person doing the platform PAs was getting very annoyed with people not letting the trains depart on time. This was before the Circle was suspended.
|
|
|
Post by rrbs on Feb 26, 2008 21:51:53 GMT
for those employed on the C & H - would the proposed 'tea cup' service pattern, where trains are Hammersmith-Edgware Rd via Circle and reverse all the way back round to Hammersmith, or Hammersmith-Barking as per current makes things less tedious, i.e the ability to get out at Edgware Rd and either take a saunter to the back, or for the train to be turning around where you are due a relief?
|
|