Circle train describers

I expect that most of the general public haven't thought about it, but would take a guess that they run on the left if asked. It will depend on which station they are most familiar with, if this is the Victoria Line at Warren Street for example they'd guess right, and if they live on a single-track branch it wont help at all.

The Beijing Loop line just says to (next station in respective direction). Seems to work fine.

Not sure if it has been mentioned here somewhere, but every bit of track on LUL has an official designation.

The Circle line tracks are officially

from west of Gloucester Road via High Street to Aldgate - Outer Rail

from Aldgate to west of Gloucester Road via High Street - Inner Rail

From Gloucester Road - Tower Hill (and to Upminster) via Victoria - Eastbound

From (Upminster) Tower Hill - Gloucester Road - Westbound.

In terms of annoucements LUL prefer us to use "clockwise and anti clockwise" though that is fairly recent, though I tend to still use Inner and Outer (as well as anit or clock) ...but I always state a few relevant via points ..which i think it most informative.

The train destination boxes are too small to realistically accomodate anything other than Circle Line, drivers will not (in my experience) wind the thing to change via points every few stops. (some of them don't even do the rear box once per trip) S Stock dot matrix will I guess do that automatically.

I think showing Circle line is more important that showing, say just "ANTI CLOCKWISE" which may cause substantial confusion to passengers awaiting a District / Met or H&C train.

The colours is a nice idea, but trains are often turned, eg a Circle at Tower Hill inner rail, may be sent to Whitechapel to reverse back to the circle via Aldgate East north curve and in consequence is the other way around (not to mention Barking stablers etc). Districts and H&C trains reformed with Circles at Edgware Road. In fact some days almost every train arriving at Edgware Road changes it's identity (set number) and often it's line !

Other than the train fronts, the station dot matrix and platform signs that say "Circle Line" are either accompanied by via points or a diagram of 3/4 of the circle route next followed ..so i don't see why there should be confusion except by those not looking and any of the signs ..and no helping them !

Why not use a nice enamel sign? In the days before we felt it was essential to convert everything to electronic control, these long-lasting, power saving devices performed admirably; and they seemed to indicate the destination of a train in a way that was far less confusing for everyone.
Oh yes - they were also good for wedging doors open.

Almost got caught out myself the other day. Notting Hill to Blackfriars, and looked for Eastbound. Of course, technically both Circle directions at Notting Hill are Eastbound, but apparently at Notting Hill I needed to go west because apparently the District Line to Wimbledon goes west. I thought Wimbledon was south of Notting Hill.

Can't we just get rid of the Circle properly rather than trying to fix the signs, rebuild some platorms and run an Edgware Road to South Kensington shuttle. At my end (Liverpool Street) I'm sure that most people wouldn't mind changing at Aldgate East if they could be sure that there would be plenty of trains. Any time saved on the Circle is lost being parked at Aldgate anyway.

And how is a tourist at Notting Hill supposed to know this?

Piccadilly Line direction boards towards Cockfosters are contextual, in west London they tend to be Eastbound, in Central London they tend to be Northbound. The only District Line service at NHG is Southbound, and it's only part of the District Line by historical accident. So, why not make the signs at NHG contextual?

No legal restrictions whatsoever on withdrawing a through service as long as the journey can be completed by interchange. Look at the various Southern Railway and Great Eastern stubs for evidence of this. Through services come and go. For example, Bromley North has had through trains to London in times past, I don't think any through services run now. Other examples of variable through services? Sheerness, Maidstone (can't remember which one off hand) etc. etc.

If it really were the case that individual services were legally protected, the T-Cup would be in violation for withdrawing through services from Baker Street to Notting Hill.

EDIT: the only bit that might be covered legally is Aldgate to Tower Hill, but a 'significant hardship' argument would have to be proven even for this, and double the service from Liverpool Street to Aldgate East, along with MIP lifts, would probably mitigate against this. If not, there are ways around the problem, as the residents of Croxley Green will confirm.

OK, lets try a little puzzle.

I'm at Liverpool Street and I want to get to Temple (I do this quite often). An H&C train has just opened its doors. Assuming I am still young and healthy enough to run up and down a flight of stairs, at what sized gap between the H&C train and the next Circle train is it worth taking a gamble and going to Aldgate East?

No heart problems in the family yet ...

I hate travelling on tube lines these days, especially during the summer and the rush hour. The surface lines are much more civilised and more useful than many people realise. Temple is a good station for Covent Garden, and it never gets busy.

Another example, Oxford Circus to Liverpool Street: Bus to Great Portland Street and then (hopefully) an empty Met train.

If my Liverpool Street train is put into the slow platforms at Stratford, I might nip out and pick up a surface line train at Mile End, otherwise I avoid the Central as much as possible

Yep, just run one train a day direct from Liverpool Street to Tower Hill at 6.10am. Then withdraw the train, remove the track immediately south of Aldgate and offer a taxi service at the same time if anyone requests it ;D
Legally that would be in compliance with the legislation, although I suspect there would be more vocal complaints than when the same happened at Croxley Green

Not on road signs, it's described North, South, East or West. Clockwise or anticlockwise would actually be better.

Getting way off topic here, but the M25 signing suffers from too few control points.
On a journey from the M4 to the A24, do I go north to Watford or south to Heathrow T4 & T5 and Gatwick? I don't want to go anywhere near Watford or Gatwick, and surely I'm already at Heathrow so that could be in either direction. All the travel reports talk about the clockwise and anti-clockwise carriageways, so I've written "anti-clockwise" on my instructions.

There should be signs on the approach to the junction that say (over 4 signs)

M25 London Orbital
Clockwise / Northbound for:
M40, M1
A1 / A1(M)
M10, M11
A12, A127, A13

Anti-clockwise / Southbound for:
M3, A3
A24, M23/A23
A22, A21, M26
M20/A20, A2

M25 London Orbital
Clockwise / Northbound for:
The Midlands, The North, East Anglia
Watford
Hemel Hempstead
Luton
Potters Bar
Waltham Abbey
Harlow
Stansted Airport
Brentwood
Southend

M25 London Orbital
Anti-clockwise / Southbound for:
The South
Heathrow Airport Terminals 4, 5 & Cargo
Staines
Woking
Leatherhead
Epsom
Gatwick Airport
Sevenoaks
Dartford

On the subject of rebuilding Aldgate East, having recently read an artical about its reconstruction it would seem extremely difficult and expensive to reconstruct it to an island. For a start there are stanchions in the way, which would have to have their load dirverted.

From what I can make of it though, there might be space for an island interchange platform at the site of the old Aldgate East....

err, the A24 passes near to Gatwick (about 9km away) and is parallel to the M23/A23. Bad example?

Clearly if you are coming at London about level with the middle (M4) and you want either S/SW London, or Surrey/Sussex these will all be South of where you are. You clearly don't want Watford or the M1, as that's to the north. Clockwise would tell me nothing - I'd have to work out what time I'm coming in at (9 o'clock) and what time I want to leave at (6.30) to realise I need anti-clockwise. We do carry a map of London, but clockwise and anti- are very rare on the motorway network (I think the M60 might have a couple of signs), the motorway network exclusively uses cardinal direction points, which can be abbreviated and understood easier.

You're big long list of destinations remind me of French signage that's hard to follow - you know the arrive at some junction between two small routes and there's ten destinations each way. You just can't take it in easily and get confused (especially when Paris is signed in both directions)

The hierarchy of destinations on the M25 does seem to work. The whole system of Super-control/regional (eg The NORTH), control, 'super local' and local destinations (so on the M40: London and Birmingham are super-control, Oxford and M25 are control, High Wycombe, Banbury and Leamington are super-local and places like Beaconsfield, Uxbridge, Stokenchurch, Bicester are local) was carefully thought out over 45 years ago, and then improved if improvements are needed as sign changes have taken place. The M25 doesn't have any super-control destinations, but has 5 control destinations, about 6 or 7 super-local ones and a local one for each junction. Signs on the M25 have a control, a super-local (if needed) and a local one at each junction, signs for the M25 (for each direction) have at least the control destination and one other, if not three. Control destinations often are signed 2 in advance, with the nearer one being treated like a super-local, super-locals and controls get treated like local destinations if near enough.

I agree with Benedict - it is about what we expect, and, as the whole rest of the network is signed as such, we are used to and expect (most of us, anyway) to be told NSEW on the M25. We also expect that the Circle line is a loop.

The circle line might be a little different - to be sure, it has other lines which help (west and east on the District and H&C) for all but the two bits shown N-S on the tube map (and Aldgate does well). Passengers aren't moving at 70mph and can take more than a minute to work out which way without having to commit, so giving every bit of information is allowed and employed. I agree with the point made above about direction on the tube map most of the time. The Edgware Road branch of the District should be N-S, not E-W. This also allows people to choose which scheme they want.