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Post by ruislip on Mar 5, 2008 23:18:59 GMT
When this occurs, how much longer does it take to travel the affected section? I have read in WTTs that Amersham-Chalfont-Chorleywood-Rickmansworth-Moor Park is 4 minutes between consecutive stations in both directions.
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Post by abe on Mar 6, 2008 8:43:02 GMT
They allow about one minute extra between each station from Amersham to Rickmansworth, so three minutes' extra in total (according to the public timetable). At Rickmansworth they get back onto their normal timings. The normal timings are 4 mins per station section each way, although some trains are allowed 5 mins. The WTTs might have slightly different values though, as they can use half-minutes.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2008 17:00:19 GMT
Yup all Amersham and all 8 car Cheshams leave 3 mins earlier in leaf fall
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metman
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Post by metman on Mar 6, 2008 19:43:48 GMT
...and usually get to Moor Park 2 mins early!!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2008 19:52:46 GMT
well it is downhill and the spedos are not that good leaf fall speed limit is 40mph norm 50mph
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Post by ruislip on Mar 7, 2008 5:40:08 GMT
Is this section of the Met the only part of the Underground that has a "leaf-fall" issue?
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Post by abe on Mar 7, 2008 7:32:07 GMT
Yes. A special timetable booklet is produced for passengers. Some years ago this would identify itself as the leaf-fall timetable, with some information about the problem and how LUL worked to resolve it. One year (at least) the cover was the northern end of the line shown vertically, with autumn leaves coming from it - rather inventive! For the last few years the timetable has had no mention of leaf-fall through. I understand that during the season Chiltern are banned from running two-car units on their own, and that a switch is operated somewhere to change the signalling system. One of our signalling experts can probably give more details.
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Mar 7, 2008 9:18:20 GMT
and that a switch is operated somewhere to change the signalling system. One of our signalling experts can probably give more details. I seem to remember that on a few signals (around Ricky, I think) the overlap is extended during leaf - fall, there has been a post on here not that long ago (but can I find it!
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Post by c5 on Mar 7, 2008 9:38:36 GMT
There is a sequential signalling switch that if a track "bobs" it will keep signals to the rear at danger - IMSO or Somer will be able to explain further!
Two car Chilterns are not allowed in the peaks.
As to the timetable, sadly anything inventive went out whe TfL came in...
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metman
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Post by metman on Mar 7, 2008 11:16:07 GMT
Two car Chilterns should be banned in the peaks anyway-they are far too overcrowded!
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Post by ruislip on Mar 7, 2008 20:46:18 GMT
I read where back in the day, uncoupling was not allowed during leaf-fall.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2008 22:10:59 GMT
"Is this section of the Met the only part of the Underground that has a "leaf-fall" issue? "
The Uxbridge branch is also researched annually with regards to leaf fall related issues & impact, but as yet has not been deemed worthwhile to run a special timetable over it.
Studies have also been undertaken on the Central Line, largely at the extremeties of the East end, but as per the Uxbridge branch, no need to implement any special workings to date.
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Mar 15, 2008 1:53:12 GMT
Studies have also been undertaken on the Central Line, largely at the extremeties of the East end, but as per the Uxbridge branch, no need to implement any special workings to date. Indeed, but the Met. is the Metropolitan.
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metman
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Post by metman on Mar 15, 2008 17:36:43 GMT
Yes, before 1981 A stock trains were uncoupled in service, but latterly only during the summer months. During winter it was too dangerous to try and couple incase of collision!
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Post by abe on Mar 18, 2008 8:27:03 GMT
Is this section of the Met the only part of the Underground that has a "leaf-fall" issue? It's not the only part of the Underground with leaf-fall problems, but the reason that it gets a special timetable and signalling is that it's an uphill gradient all the way from Rickmansworth to Amersham (and then beyond, to Dutchlands summit). Adhesion problems are made worse by the gradient; downhill trains have to brake more gently to avoid skidding and getting wheel flats - hence the extra time allowed between stations.
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Post by suncloud on Mar 18, 2008 9:57:24 GMT
Also I'd imagine as the Met is one of the few specifically timetabled (in public terms) lines, if leaf fall affects the timings of all or a significant number of trains, it would cause upset to commuters expecting a train to arrive at a specific time and it regularly being early or late. On other lines which only provide first/last trains and intermediate frequencies to customers, it doesn't matter to them if every train ends up running a couple of minutes late, as long as the advertised frequency is retained. And as long as any short delays caused by leaf fall are recovered on journey when reversing etc... there's not much point changing the WTT
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metman
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Post by metman on Mar 18, 2008 10:20:23 GMT
Yes the Amersham branch is the only part of LU with a public timetable. The frequency is poor during the peak period so I can understand why a timetable is published!
Interestingly it is not only the Met that provides adhesion trains-Chiltern also have trains to do this. There is a green class 115 DMU (lovely to see and hear it in action too) which applies sand, and there is a bubble car (class 121/122?) that also operates.
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Post by ruislip on Mar 18, 2008 19:22:47 GMT
Is this section of the Met the only part of the Underground that has a "leaf-fall" issue? the reason that it gets a special timetable and signalling is that it's an uphill gradient all the way from Rickmansworth to Amersham (and then beyond, to Dutchlands summit). IIRC, Amersham is the station that has the highest elevation for the entire LU network.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2008 22:21:26 GMT
There is a sequential signalling switch that if a track "bobs" it will keep signals to the rear at danger - IMSO or Somer will be able to explain further! Yep this is because of the leaves forming a mulch which can electrically separate the train from the track, thus causing the track circuit to "pick up" under a train. The danger of this being - in normal operation - the potential of a green signal behind a train. So the sequential signalling is switched in - if the track circuits are not operated in the correct sequence i.e. one after the other in the normal direction of travel, this will set the signal concerned to danger and also one in the rear. It can be reset by a TO, but this is not allowed during traffic hours so the only other way to get round it is for a train to apply the rule through the area and (hopefully) operate all track circuits in the correct sequence thus allowing signals to clear behind it. Any clearer?
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Mar 18, 2008 23:04:15 GMT
The sequential signalling isn't actually that clever - it looks for the train to go into a section and then come out of it. If it hasn't seen that, it will hold the signal in rear, but doesn't look at each individual track circuit.
There are similar systems in use between Notting Hill Gate and Bayswater and on the Bakerloo line.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2008 23:22:39 GMT
Yes the Amersham branch is the only part of LU with a public timetable. The frequency is poor during the peak period so I can understand why a timetable is published! Interestingly it is not only the Met that provides adhesion trains-Chiltern also have trains to do this. There is a green class 115 DMU (lovely to see and hear it in action too) which applies sand, and there is a bubble car (class 121/122?) that also operates. the chiltern train is actually a water jetter, you hear the jets hissing away as the train passes through and see the spray on the sleepers and rail after the train goes
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Post by c5 on Mar 18, 2008 23:28:46 GMT
Yes the Amersham branch is the only part of LU with a public timetable. The frequency is poor during the peak period so I can understand why a timetable is published! Interestingly it is not only the Met that provides adhesion trains-Chiltern also have trains to do this. There is a green class 115 DMU (lovely to see and hear it in action too) which applies sand, and there is a bubble car (class 121/122?) that also operates. the chiltern train is actually a water jetter, you hear the jets hissing away as the train passes through and see the spray on the sleepers and rail after the train goes They also have a Sandit train, but it is not permitted to lay on LUL metals. The water jetter sprays when authorised to do so by the Service Controller Level 2.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2008 23:52:24 GMT
well it is downhill and the spedos are not that good leaf fall speed limit is 40mph norm 50mph If they kept the timings the same the trains would probably still arrive on time. I have the leaf fall season and everything that comes with it.
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metman
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Post by metman on Mar 19, 2008 0:57:26 GMT
Yeah it wouldn't surprise me! I heard that there was a water jetter! Never seen it in action. I have seen sand placed on LUL rail by the (green) 115, although there always seems to be an A stock train following it!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2008 10:07:16 GMT
The sequential signalling isn't actually that clever - it looks for the train to go into a section and then come out of it. If it hasn't seen that, it will hold the signal in rear, but doesn't look at each individual track circuit. There are similar systems in use between Notting Hill Gate and Bayswater and on the Bakerloo line. Oh well you live and learn, I explained it the way it was taught to me (which is obviously wrong!).
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2008 10:07:54 GMT
IIRC, Amersham is the station that has the highest elevation for the entire LU network. Yes. 150m above sea level I think.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2008 13:54:33 GMT
Yeah it wouldn't surprise me! I heard that there was a water jetter! Never seen it in action. I have seen sand placed on LUL rail by the (green) 115, although there always seems to be an A stock train following it! The green unit only sprays water. We do the sand laying with 710.
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metman
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Post by metman on Mar 19, 2008 14:12:10 GMT
710 is the RAT set number? I've seen sandite trains on the line before. I think it was a class 121/122 Railtrack train with 'clearing the way' on the side. Not seen it for a while tho.
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Post by Colin on Mar 19, 2008 14:21:58 GMT
We're going round in circles here aren't we?
To clarify:
Network Rail (aka Chiltern) do water spaying LUL (aka A stock Rail Adhesion Car) lay Sandite
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2008 22:56:23 GMT
We're going round in circles here aren't we? To clarify: Network Rail (aka Chiltern) do water spaying LUL (aka A stock Rail Adhesion Car) lay Sandite However *sometimes* (as long as they are formed up of two or more units) Chiltern's Sandite (as opposed to Water jetting train) trains run over our metals as a stock move to Marylebone, so thats where you may have seen it on our railway.
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