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Post by thc on Mar 18, 2006 22:04:04 GMT
Interesting stuff mrjrt for which many thanks. I've done a lot of searching on the Croxley Link and the subject of dual-level ('S' and tube stock) access at Watford High Street on uk.railway and uk.transport.london and haven't found any mention of it on either newsgroup. If I come across anything I'll post it here.
THC
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Post by Hutch on Jul 1, 2006 18:19:01 GMT
Just to prove that there is nothing new under the sun – here is an interesting (for me at least ) Letter to the Editor of the Railway Magazine dated September, 1960. The branch was lifted a few years later.
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Post by Tubeboy on Jul 1, 2006 20:33:56 GMT
The Rickmansworth Church Street branch ran under the met line, a bit before where the Watford branch diverges [towards Harrow] Closed 1952.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2006 22:11:55 GMT
The Rickmansworth Church Street branch ran under the met line, a bit before where the Watford branch diverges [towards Harrow] Closed 1952. Closed to passengers 1952, but open for freight until 1967.
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Post by mandgc on Jul 2, 2006 9:42:23 GMT
"Someone will be along to explain..."
You've got a bite ! :-)
The 'New Line" was part of the LNWR Electrification scheme and was to run from Watford Junction, along the LNW Rickmansworth branch via High St. then a new route to Bushey on the WCML. It followed on the West of the Main Line to Wembley, then under to the East side and on through Queens Pk. to Camden finishing in an underground return loop under Euston station. The extension of the Bakerloo to Queens Park and Watford Junction did away with the need for the Euston Loop. 630v DC was chosen to be compatable with the West London line to Earls Court and North London line from Broad Street to Richmond.
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Post by mrjrt on Jul 2, 2006 12:25:10 GMT
I remember reading somewhere that LNWR orginally preferred the new lines to follow the route to Ricky Church street rather than Watford, and only politics eventually persuaded them to build the curve round to Watford High St. My guess is that route was more financially viable as it would have pointed towards London, and Watford was already served by the existing lines. One wonders if they considered a similar scheme with the Belmont line but only discounted it as it wouldn't be able to access H&W station...
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Post by mandgc on Jul 3, 2006 23:38:10 GMT
The Belmont (and Stanmore Village) Line Joined the WCML at Harrow & W. on the opposite side to the electrified New Line which would make it awkward to connect up. Also the Junction was the wrong way, leading to Watford. Two Push and Pull Steam trains maintained a frequent service in Rush Hours on the branch - crossing each other at Belmont.
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Post by thc on Jul 6, 2006 13:55:56 GMT
I've just been in touch with a nice man at TfL Stakeholder Relations who tells me that Hertfordshire County Council (lead promoter of the Croxley Link) expects to lodge a revised funding package for the scheme to the DfT by the end of this month (despite numerous emails to HCC - well, their consultants, Mouchel Parkman - they were incapable of telling me that themselves). So we should expect to hear something back from the mandarins by the next millennium.
I'm not holding my breath in anticipation...
THC
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2006 23:23:35 GMT
The Rickmansworth Church Street branch ran under the met line, a bit before where the Watford branch diverges [towards Harrow] Closed 1952. This can be seen here (it is now known as "The Ebury Way Cycle Path" so at least it's sustainable transport ).
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Post by thc on Nov 27, 2006 15:06:00 GMT
It's been a while since anyone's mentioned the Croxley Rail Link so I thought I would bring it up again. I found this in a report on the agenda for the October 2006 meeting of the London Travel Watch Rail & Underground Sub-committee (catchy title, huh?)
It makes for positive reading in what has been a tortuously slow development process. Hopefully there will be some sort of headline announcement soon.
THC
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"Croxley Rail Link is currently being progressed by Hertfordshire County Council and remains one of the Council's identified major schemes within the Local Transport Plan, for which it is seeking grant funding from the Department for Transport (DfT).
Croxley Rail Link was first submitted to the DfT as a major scheme bid for funding from 2001/02. The County Council continues to jointly promote the project in partnership with London Underground (LUL) and Transport for London (TfL).
Through previous bid submissions and through negotiations with LUL it has been established that:
· The scheme meets the economic criteria of the DfT, and TfL has approved the scheme's economic appraisal. · The Mayor of London supports the scheme and it features within the Mayor's Transport Strategy for London · TfL is prepared to formally enter a promotion agreement with Hertfordshire County Council to co-promote the Transport & Works application · LUL has included the scheme as a 'specified right' under the PPP contract with Metronet (the PPP contractor) and it is included within its future plans.
In January 2005 TfL reconfirmed its commitment to the project with a significant financial contribution of some £18m being included within the TfL 5-Year Investment Programme. HCC submitted a revised funding package proposal, including this contribution, to DfT in Spring 2005.
Subsequently, the Government has been seeking the advice of the regions as to their priorities in transport, housing and economic development to enhance regional input to Government policy and assist in the process of identifying Regional Funding Allocations (RFAs). The advice from East of England to Government on RFAs was published at the end of January 2006 and Croxley Rail Link was identified as a 'Priority 1' scheme, starting in 2010/11.
The time frame for the Croxley Rail Link proposed by the RFA is realistic, given that the Transport & Works Act process has yet to be embarked upon. A key trigger for the TWA process is confirmation from DfT that the project has gained "Scheme Entry" status under its new procedures. (This is similar to the DfT's conventional "provisional approval"). Detailed discussions have taken place with DfT with respect to the extent to which risks have been assessed and how they are to be managed, reflecting DfT's new approach to the assessment of major schemes for funding.
Further work is being undertaken, utilising current best practice and contractor's experience on similar schemes, to produce a robust up-to-date cost estimate including quantified values for 'risks', to which TfL/LUL, HCC and DfT can sign up.
As such, Croxley Rail Link is very much a 'live' project with the strong backing of the local authorities, the regional authority and TfL as well as widespread public support."
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2006 20:05:58 GMT
I can't really see the value of this scheme personally. The Metropolitan would take at least 45 minutes from Watford Junction to Baker Street, whereas the WCML does WJ to Euston in 19-22 minutes, every 15 minutes.
My feeling is that better value for money would be provided by improving the interchange at Harrow and Wealdstone so that the waiting times would be consistently shorter throughout the day (say under 5 minutes). That way, passengers between Carpenders Park and Harrow Weald would have a relatively fast service into London compared to today's which varies wildly.
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Post by trc666 on Nov 27, 2006 21:56:25 GMT
Even if it doesn't provide a decent route from Central London to Watford, it could open up the opportunity for a direct NR service from Aylesbury / Amersham (using the North Curve) to connect with WCML (Virgin / First ScotRail) and Silverlink services at Watford Junction.
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Post by mrjrt on Nov 27, 2006 21:59:14 GMT
The value in the scheme is to Watford, and Watford alone. The link provides far more useful local services to West Watford, and when taken into consideration in the context of Watford North curve, More viable services begin to reveal themselves (at least to me ). Ultimately, the ideal situation would be a unified local service running from Rickmansworth to St. Albans (with dive under at Watford Junction), or possibly Chiltern providing said services as part of a unified Aylesbury route. To me at least, the thought of commuting from Watford Met is madness, given the advantages of getting the Silverlink County from Bushey, let alone Watford Junction. I catch the train at Harrow & Wealdstone, and it's literally only 15 minutes to Euston, so I can't imagine that it's much more from the preceding station(s). Still, few TOCs do frequent local services as good as TfL, so if that's what gets the link actually built, so be it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2006 22:41:36 GMT
The whole point of the scheme is as mrjrt and TRC666 state - to improve local connectivity and open up local journey opportunities. It's not really designed to supplant the Silverlink County services, or even the DC lines, but to primarily improve access from Met Main-served towns to Watford.
As mrjrt states, the biggest opportunity offered are Aylesbury-Watford Junction services, which would be beneficial not for their end-to-end connectivity but for the frequency increases offered to the Met Main north of Moor Park as well as the local benefits to the neighborhoods in West Watford.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2006 22:52:36 GMT
If so, I stand corrected amd it seems to me to be a welcome rarity -- a line being built to serve intra-suburban traffic on the outer London periphery. Welcome, because getting around without a car in these areas is pretty difficult.
And yet... I can't help but think that the majority of people in West Watford would like a quick way of getting to London, not Ricky, Amersham or Aylesbury.
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Post by amershamsi on Nov 27, 2006 23:01:42 GMT
for a fairly small sum of money, you are able to: 1)give west Watford a direct link with London, and a train service once again. 2)give Watford town centre a direct link with Harrow town centre (probably cheaper than fixing the GC/Met-WCML interchange near Kenton, which wouldn't allow direct trains anyway) 3)provide a second route to London from Watford, and allow diversionary routes 4)allow places like Rickmansworth, Amersham and Aylesbury to have the possibility of direct trains to Watford 5)give periphery places in Watford rail access to the centre.
All in all, I can't see why not!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2006 23:19:48 GMT
There is also the opportunity for interchange with the canal at Ascot Road.
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Post by thc on Nov 28, 2006 9:12:28 GMT
for a fairly small sum of money, you are able to: 1)...5) <snip>8 All in all, I can't see why not! And if you need another reason: 6) Opening up the Watford employment zone to rail commuters from NW London (TfL's main reason for contributing) and Buckinghamshire. I think Chiltern has yet to be persuaded but if the case can be made for them serving Watford Junction it would only add to the scheme's VFM. There is also the opportunity for interchange with the canal at Ascot Road. I spent my formative years in an LT house about five minutes' walk from that particular spot (in sight of the current Met crossing of the GUC) which explains my possibly peculiar interest in seeing this project to fruition! THC
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