|
|
Post by edb on Jun 16, 2006 13:02:19 GMT
What on earth happened this morning. I'm used to a little delay in the morning but not a suspension of service.
I had to get on a bus. Especially Irritating since i had managed to get one of the quietest trains.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2006 14:12:01 GMT
What on earth happened this morning. I'm used to a little delay in the morning but not a suspension of service. I had to get on a bus. Especially Irritating since i had managed to get one of the quietest trains. According to BBC London at lunchtime some debris on the line caused issues (didn't catch the exact dialogue), maybe the train hit it? Anyway, people were stuck on a train in a tunnel for some time before they could get out of the train. We'll likely find out more later on on the Evening News. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2006 14:44:33 GMT
It's all very unclear. Heard a suggestion that something (not a motor!) fell from the train. But don't quote me on that...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2006 17:44:09 GMT
Phew! home a little later than expected, owning to earlier 'problems'...
The line was closed, shortly before 09.00 this morning, between Leytonstone and Holborn, owing to what was first thought to be a failed train at Bank. I'm unsure as to exactly what happened, but an trying to find out who the T/Op was..... coupled with a signal failure in the Ruislip Gardens - West Ruislip, it hasnt been a very good day....
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2006 17:47:49 GMT
Have you seen the Sub-Standard's headline??
800 PEOPLE TRAPPED IN TUBE TUNNEL ........ bloody twats ( the newspaper, not the passengers )
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2006 17:50:17 GMT
bloody twats ( the newspaper, not the passengers ) ROFL ;D Seriously though, this was a gift for the ES who love to slag off the Tube at every given opportunity (as we all know). Sadly there's been too many opportunities lately. |
|
towerman
My status is now now widower
Posts: 2,970
|
Post by towerman on Jun 16, 2006 19:42:16 GMT
From what I've heard the incident started at 08:50 with a train stalled at Bank with another stalled behind,about 800 pssengers all told,they started detraining at approx 09:10 and all passengers were safely out of the tunnel by 10:45.I think that's pretty good going seeing as you can only move so many people at a time,but that doesn't make good headlines for Mr Dick(head)Murray.
|
|
Oracle
In memoriam
RIP 2012
Writing is such sweet sorrow: like heck it is!
Posts: 3,234
|
Post by Oracle on Jun 16, 2006 21:33:24 GMT
Does the 'Holborn' reference mean reversing at British Museum?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2006 21:59:16 GMT
Does the 'Holborn' reference mean reversing at British Museum? yes. BTW, I've had contact with someone whose at the head end, who tells me [unconfirmed btw] the shoebeam fell off one end only, causing it to drag along the track. unsure if it was leading or trailing end - still trying to find out more... |
|
Oracle
In memoriam
RIP 2012
Writing is such sweet sorrow: like heck it is!
Posts: 3,234
|
Post by Oracle on Jun 17, 2006 20:21:22 GMT
There was another thread on this subject on another forum. The new ? #-over at Queensway was mentioned that has just been reinstated or installed.
My query is whether signalling at British Museum/Holborn can allow for both East-West and West-East reversal? Marble Arch I remember form when I used to work in London, and there were of course the MA-Liverpool St 'shorts'. E-W via MA siding was also done in the recent past so I assume that is signalled.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2006 22:04:28 GMT
The crossovers into British Museum siding can be used in both directions; the wrong-road shunt signal to the siding can be seen on the e/b line at Holborn station, on the left-hand side of the exit portal of the platform tunnel.
|
|
|
|
Post by ribaric on Jun 17, 2006 22:50:47 GMT
There's a major problem with Museum siding when used to reverse east to west if the line is suspended east of Holborn.
It takes a double shunt - in that the trains run east into Holborn, detrain and reverse into the siding, reverse back into the westbound and then reverse again to go west. The time it takes to do this - a minimum of 14 minutes without double-ending, means someone has to decide if a 14 minute service in Central London is a safe option. Bum squeaking time for the DLCM unless the service control plan contains specific instructions - it didn't up to 2000.
There's no simple (single shunt) reversing moves - east to west - in the central London section until Liverpool St. This makes using Musuem even more important but even more problematic. Marble Arch is available but suffers the same double shunt problems. A case of Central line evolution rather than design.
Is Queensway available yet? It's a bit too far west to be of much real value IMHO.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2006 22:53:38 GMT
Is Queensway available yet? It's a bit too far west to be of much real value IMHO. Which, AIUI, is one of the reasons for its removal in the 1980's *Don't quote me on the date of removal* |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2006 23:31:26 GMT
If trains tip out at TCR could they reverse at Holborn without the double shunt, i.e. without going into Holborn E/B platform?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2006 0:47:14 GMT
I don't think so - like I said, the wrong-road shunt signal on the e/b is positioned next to the entry portal for the e/b platform tunnel at Holborn. Any train seeking to set back into the siding would have to run all the way into Holborn station, stop, change ends and proceed wrong-line into the siding.
Would the following variant of stepping back help?
1. Train pulls into Holborn e/b
2. T/Op on east end shuts down and removes key
3. A T/Op enters on the west end and opens up
4. West-end T/Op drives the train into the siding
5. West-end T/Op shuts down and removes key when the train is in siding
6. East-end T/Op opens up and drives train into Holborn w/b
7. East-end T/Op shuts down, removes key and leaves train
8. West-end T/Op opens up and heads off to TCR
Admittedly, it's complex and maybe a bit fragile, but it would save the walking time for the T/Op to go from one end of the train to the other...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2006 7:56:14 GMT
3rd car neggi shoegear fell down. suggestions are the pins/bolts which hold the shoegear to the train were fatigued/missing/broken.
|
|
|
|
Post by ribaric on Jun 18, 2006 9:28:19 GMT
It is not possible to cross directly from either side at Holborn, there is no cross-over, only a staggered entry blind centre siding accessible from the eastern end.
The modified step-back process you described is what I use to know as "double ending" and does work well. The main problem is that, when the smelly stuff hits the fan and Holborn siding comes into play, any extra crew you need is still 30 mins away (effectively) at White City or Leytonstone. Double ending works well but it takes about an hour to set up, in the mean-time, we're stuck with a 14 minute service which may be more trouble than it's worth. Double-ending also requires a level of co-ordination and understanding between the two T/Ops on each train, I don't believe there is a formal written procedure for it, I could be out of date with that. It also means you need more than 1 extra T/Op because the next arrival will need the 2nd person whilst the first train is still fiddling about to-ing and fro-ing between the platforms and sidings. It's a pain and not always an easy call for a DLCM to make - but that's why they get circa 50K a year.
|
|
|
|
Post by ribaric on Jun 18, 2006 9:35:57 GMT
Re: Queensway siding, if memory serves (it often doesn't) at CL project design time, we could not afford to change the entry turn-outs into the siding which were, at least one anyway, so tight that the car ends came into contact and caused damage. The view was that this siding was pretty useless anyway in terms of a good service control tactics. History had made it the wrong way round.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2006 10:38:24 GMT
There's a major problem with Museum siding when used to reverse east to west if the line is suspended east of Holborn. It takes a double shunt - in that the trains run east into Holborn, detrain and reverse into the siding, reverse back into the westbound and then reverse again to go west. The time it takes to do this - a minimum of 14 minutes without double-ending, means someone has to decide if a 14 minute service in Central London is a safe option. Bum squeaking time for the DLCM unless the service control plan contains specific instructions - it didn't up to 2000. Even though the whole double (or is really triple?) shunt manouvre takes 14 minutes, why would it result in a 14 minute headway. I would have thought that once a train had been detrained, and reversed into the siding, then the next train could advance from the previous station to be detrained. In my calculations, this could be done in 8 minutes (4mins to detrain & driver to change ends, 2 mins to run into siding, and 2 mins for next train to run into platform). |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2006 10:56:20 GMT
Its surprising to read all these comments...I know little about the Central Line, but had thought reversing East to West via Holborn/British Museum sidings was a common procedure - it has happened many times in the past...so it doesn't sound right that they would have done if they could only run a service every 15 minutes. into Holborn...that would be stretched to the limit by the large crowds building up,
Queensway crossover - I always found that to be strange; how that crossover was out of use, reinstated last year at last year, only a few weeks before Queensway station was closed for a year refurbishment, effectively hampering their use as an emergency crossover.
|
|
Oracle
In memoriam
RIP 2012
Writing is such sweet sorrow: like heck it is!
Posts: 3,234
|
Post by Oracle on Jun 18, 2006 11:03:35 GMT
I was amazed at how 'slick' the Marble Arch shunt moves were doen when the service re-opened in part BUT I suppose there was by then a set-piece move?
I suppose though the punters argue any service is a service, and none is Evening Standard fodder? Other London newspapers are available of course, in the BBC venacular!
|
|
|
|
Post by ribaric on Jun 18, 2006 21:38:50 GMT
Good calls Oracle/stephenk. Indeed, a planned service reversing E to W at Holborn is a different matter as double-back T/Ops will have been organised, perhaps a Stn Sup provided to manage the tip-outs and a WTT writtten to accommodate it.
A sudden suspension is something quite different, no extra T/Ops for at least 1/2 hour, the staff at Holborn suddenly dropped "in it" by the crowds and a probable queue of trains on the EB road.
The staff at Wood Lane have, among many, a rule that states "Thou shalt not leave trains stuck between tunnel stations - on pain of death!" They will attempt to hold all trains in platforms which is no mean feat at the outset. The way to achieve that is to hold trains at TCR EB until the one in the HOLB EB platform has fully berthed in Musuem sidings and has released the track lock behind it. True, 14 minutes is a long time but, by observation, it's not far from the reality of the thing, often made worse by folk who are reluctant to detrain at Holborn, they're not used to it and tend to argue their case with the hapless T/Op.
|
|
