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Post by q8 on Apr 21, 2005 16:49:44 GMT
 I never really understood whyAldgate should be totally under the domain of one control room. To my mind the Aldgate Junction/bay platforms/inner circle should be worked by Baker. The outer circle starter/Minories junction/Aldgate East should come under Earls Court. Again all this comes down to timetabling. Circles are allowed FAR TOO MUCH TIME to go round. In the 60's and before they were allowed 48 minutes and still they used to dawdle about. That is NOT the fault of the control room, it is the DRIVERS. But you must see his point too. 4/half hours on the circle will drive anybody doolally so again schedules office should ensure that a man does 2 round then maybe some H & C. Then perhaps 2 round the other way. I still say however that ALL "C" strock workings should be done by Edgware Road including Wimbledons and that the parts of other lines worked over by this stock should have their own separate "line" status "City Line". That way it would obviate drivers having to learn two separate stocks and all maintainance kept to Hammersmith and Barking (which should be upgraded to depot) Parsons green should be a totally "D" stock stabling point with all the "C" stock being accomodated at Hammersmith/Triangle/Farringdon/Barking. Then you've got, one line/one stock/one manning/one management for the whole lot with three separate lines. "Metropolitan" "City" and "District" with all them getting "tunnel" and "daylight" work. Inter-running cannot be avoided but at least do away with the "inter-crewing" bits of it. I've had me rant so I await Mr CS's answer. 
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Colin
Advisor
My preserved fire engine!
Posts: 11,346
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Post by Colin on Apr 21, 2005 18:37:47 GMT
Circles are allowed FAR TOO MUCH TIME to go round. In the 60's and before they were allowed 48 minutes and still they used to dawdle about. That is NOT the fault of the control room, it is the DRIVERS. But you must see his point too. 4/half hours on the circle will drive anybody doolally so again schedules office should ensure that a man does 2 round then maybe some H & C. Then perhaps 2 round the other way. The Circles getting in the way problem is absolutely down to the drivers. Because there is no end of line to speak of, there is no layover to recover time or a way of turning the trains to put them back on time. The only weapon the controller has is to renumber them, to restore everthing back to normal after a disruption. The drivers know this and exploit this unique nature to it's fullest!! I'm guessing that's why they got more time, so the driver's would find it harder to knacker the service by going slow. |
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Post by citysig on Apr 21, 2005 19:49:41 GMT
Mr Q8, the arrangement of controlling Aldgate you mention has been talked of a few times in the past - the latest occasion being when they planned to move the site under Baker Street's control. It would seem most sensible to operate it that way, and remove us from the "Delayed District" equation.
But, politics and progress and all that...
As for "enough time." Even if all of the infrastructure was pretty much perfect, the stock reasonable and the drivers behaving, believe it or not the absolute minimum time a Circle trip can be done - by obeying speed limits and having the average dwell time per station is today52 minutes.
However it was done (and only by some) years ago is now only a distant memory. I have witnessed if I remember correctly a 42-44 minute trip on a Sunday evening by a late-running driver who had been warned that no reforms would take place.
Colin, management (and in fact most control staff) are well aware of the "tricks" the Circle drivers try to pull. Some of them are that old that you can predict them even before the driver pulls it.
As for recovery, they may not ever arrive at the "end of a trip" but infact they do receive some.
Early morning trips are "padded" to enable right-time before the morning peak.
At the end of both peaks, some trains receive up to 8 minutes either at Aldgate or Edgware Road. That is an average turn-round for most trains. The last 2 trips of the peak normally have a hefty chunk followed by 4-6 minutes respectively.
During the off-peak they get 56 minutes to go round with the extra 4 minutes split between Aldgate and Edgware Road.
When you look at it that way, it should be quite difficult to always run late - and in fact the average day sees them lose around 10-14 minutes in the peak and recovering it off-peak. Reforms are not the norm they used to be.
However, there will always be the handful of those Edgware Road chaps who don't play ball. Thye do it on H&C trips as well.
I know it can be boring, but there is that to every job. Let's face it I've set OB22 signal so much this evening it's getting very tiresome. Best to knuckle down and do your time. Then everyone can have a pretty good day and go home not too stessed by it all.
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Colin
Advisor
My preserved fire engine!
Posts: 11,346
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Post by Colin on Apr 21, 2005 19:59:27 GMT
I know it can be boring, but there is that to every job. Let's face it I've set OB22 signal so much this evening it's getting very tiresome. Best to knuckle down and do your time. Then everyone can have a pretty good day and go home not too stessed by it all. I'll raise a glass to that!!  |
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Post by citysig on Apr 21, 2005 20:09:29 GMT
If this boring soul destroying shift would ever end, then so would I ;D
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Post by Admin Team on Apr 21, 2005 20:15:49 GMT
If this boring soul destroying shift would ever end, then so would I ;D But at least you have the luxury of being able to browse the web and post here whilst you're at work though Citysig..... *Thinks*... Laptop with a wireless connection and roaming for networks..... hmmmmm... well, maybe not! |
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Post by Harsig on Apr 21, 2005 20:49:14 GMT
*Thinks*... Laptop with a wireless connection and roaming for networks..... hmmmmm... well, maybe not! I don't know. It would give you something to do while sitting at OB31. |
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Post by igelkotten on Apr 21, 2005 23:42:04 GMT
*Thinks*... Laptop with a wireless connection and roaming for networks..... hmmmmm... well, maybe not! Point A: The onboard components of our ATP signalling system here on the Stockholm green line transmits and recieves data packets for the signalling almost continously. Now, every data packet is of a certain size, but not all those bits are actually used by our version of the signallign system. Some are reserved for functions not implemented here, others are simply redundant spares. In other words, there is a certain amount of data transfer available "for free" Point B: The on-board computers that drive the systems display in the driver's cabs of the C20 stock are basically an hardened industrial version of Intel 486 or 586 PC computers, running a slightly modified version of Windows 3.1. The hard disks used are large enough to contain a comfy amount of spare capacity. Point C: There are several nice computer games originally designed in the x386 processor era with network capabilites built into them, and also small enough to fit in on a hard disk where space is at a premium. A prime example is the original Doom, which also could be played using only a numeric keypad and the arrow keys. Which are available on a C20 cab keyboard. When taken together, this gives rise to several interesting possibilites. And a certain desire to grab a laptop under the arm and do a bit of depot stalking one night. Has train 17/29 been allowed to depart out of turn and is now in front of you? FRAG HIM!!!! ;D |
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solidbond
Staff Emeritus
'Give me 118 reasons for an Audible Warning on a C Stock'
Posts: 1,215
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Post by solidbond on Apr 22, 2005 8:07:52 GMT
But you must see his point too. 4/half hours on the circle will drive anybody doolally so again schedules office should ensure that a man does 2 round then maybe some H & C. Then perhaps 2 round the other way. The maximum that can be done is 3 complete Circles in theory. However, due to the wording of the agreement, there can be more work if it is BEFORE the 3 Circles. This is because the wording is 'After 3 Circles there must be a 10 minute break'. Thus, you cannot do 3 Circles then take the same train to Barking, but you can bring the train from Barking and then do 3 Circles  . The 3 Circle agreement came about when OPO was introduced on the line, and also had an extra part whereby there could be no more than 6 Circles on a duty. When Company Plan came in in 1992, that agreement was changed, and although the 3 Circles on one train remained, the 6 Circle maximum was lost. This resulted in duties with up to 7 Circles on them, and in some cases some H&C work as well. It was made worse on some duties as there could be 7 Circles all on one side, and in some cases the split between halves of the duty was also uneven, with perhaps 2 Circles before grub, and 5 after . In about 1994, the reps at Edgware Road, of which I was one, were given the opportunity to write their own duty sheets ;D ;D. We were asked if there were any parameters that we would like to see incorporated to the sheets, and I made a suggestion which is still used today. This was to limit the number of Circles on a duty to 6, (as it was before Company Plan), but also to limit the number of Circles to a maximum of 4 on either half of the duty, and no more than 4 on one side during the course of the duty. These were duly incorporated into the sheets that Scheduling compiled and we, the reps, compiled. We were given 2 weeks to come up with the sheets. Bearing in mind that the reps were all Train Operators, with no real experience of writing duty sheets, except that I had been a roster scrutineer for a couple of years. At the end of the 2 weeks we all had a meeting to see how the sheets compared. Needless to say Schedules picked lots of holes in the sheets we had come up with, but nevertheless, had to admit to being impressed with our work (I was later told that they had only expected us to be half way through the M-F sheets - we had actually finished the M-Fs and were halfway through the Sats ;D) As a result of our success in producing a set of sheets, schedules agreed to incorporate all our suggestions in future sheets (scared that with a bit of practice we could do their job better than them, and they'd be out of work ;D) I sometimes spoke to one of the guys from schedules who told me it was a real pain doing the sheets now, as they would be left with one Circle to allocate, a duty that had time to do it, then looked again, and saw that duty had already done 4 on that side ;D ;D ;D Unlikely to happen due to lack of space That would result in 29 road becoming unusable, as it can only accommodate a C stock Hope you don't mind me butting in as well ;D ;D |
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Post by citysig on Apr 22, 2005 14:54:52 GMT
But at least you have the luxury of being able to browse the web and post here whilst you're at work though Citysig..... To clarify (and this isn't just rear-covering for any management looking in) the place at which I sat to post is far from luxurious - though it has improved slightly in recent weeks - and the time I posted was during my late-evening break. I had spent nearly the remainder of the shift on the desk with no other break. |
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Post by q8 on Apr 22, 2005 16:47:42 GMT
 'After 3 Circles there must be a 10 minute break'. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Blimey! in my time I remember that blokes at Baker Street had turns that were 4 round one way and 4 round the other. There was also a turn at Ricky (the main line depots did Circles and H&C work then too) that did some Amersham work and after grub did 4 Circles. IRRC IT was Ricky-Amersham-Baker-Grub-4 round outer-Baker-Home on the cushions. All in 8 hours. Rough turn. (I stand to be corrected on that as I was never rostered at Baker. But we used to see Baker crews at Barking on meal relief and they told us) Also at that time Barking H&C used to do ELL work and New Cross used to do Hammersmiths.
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I never really understood whyAldgate should be totally under the domain of one control room. To my mind the Aldgate Junction/bay platforms/inner circle should be worked by Baker. The outer circle starter/Minories junction/Aldgate East should come under Earls Court. Again all this comes down to timetabling. Circles are allowed FAR TOO MUCH TIME to go round. In the 60's and before they were allowed 48 minutes and still they used to dawdle about. That is NOT the fault of the control room, it is the DRIVERS. But you must see his point too. 4/half hours on the circle will drive anybody doolally so again schedules office should ensure that a man does 2 round then maybe some H & C. Then perhaps 2 round the other way. I still say however that ALL "C" strock workings should be done by Edgware Road including Wimbledons and that the parts of other lines worked over by this stock should have their own separate "line" status "City Line". That way it would obviate drivers having to learn two separate stocks and all maintainance kept to Hammersmith and Barking (which should be upgraded to depot) Parsons green should be a totally "D" stock stabling point with all the "C" stock being accomodated at Hammersmith/Triangle/Farringdon/Barking. Then you've got, one line/one stock/one manning/one management for the whole lot with three separate lines. "Metropolitan" "City" and "District" with all them getting "tunnel" and "daylight" work. Inter-running cannot be avoided but at least do away with the "inter-crewing" bits of it. I've had me rant so I await Mr CS's answer. 
. The 3 Circle agreement came about when OPO was introduced on the line, and also had an extra part whereby there could be no more than 6 Circles on a duty. When Company Plan came in in 1992, that agreement was changed, and although the 3 Circles on one train remained, the 6 Circle maximum was lost. This resulted in duties with up to 7 Circles on them, and in some cases some H&C work as well. It was made worse on some duties as there could be 7 Circles all on one side, and in some cases the split between halves of the duty was also uneven, with perhaps 2 Circles before grub, and 5 after 
