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Post by jimbo on Oct 1, 2024 20:57:09 GMT
Unfortunately, when the SSR resignalling is finally completed, this area will remain unchanged!
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Post by 35b on Oct 1, 2024 21:59:57 GMT
Just received the following from TFL customer services after emailing them last week after seeing the number of morning peak commuters unable to board trains at Putney Bridge. Posted verbatim below: 'Unfortunately we do not have direct influence on the maintenance of signals or response to signal failures between East Putney and Southfields as this part of the line is maintained by Network Rail. As District Line Service Control we have done our best to encourage, support and cajole a fix for the fault.' The question on why Putney Bridge has zero information on the departure boards was ignored. Any well managed organisation would have a service agreement with Network Rail rather than attempting to encourage, support and cajole. When 95% of the trains running on said section of track are TFL, its actually not surprising that Network Rail have no interest in fixing things, who can blame them. The fact TFL has no recourse is a TFL management failure. Service level agreements are great, but come second to cajolery and persuasion when things break - especially if they’re difficult jobs, as this one appears to be. Departure boards on the branch are a different issue, and cause me deep frustration whenever I visit. It shouldn’t be difficult to display departures to the right destinations before trains leave Wimbledon, but 30 years have seen no progress on that front.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Oct 2, 2024 4:43:03 GMT
Failure at East Putney fixed this morning. Let’s hope it lasts this time…..
EDIT: to add insult to injury, a points failure at High Street Kensington is preventing District line trains from accessing outer rail platform 2.
Only half the Edgware Road trains running, between Wimbledon & High Street Kensington - so Wimbledon is still getting a reduced service despite the East Putney fix.
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Post by tut on Oct 2, 2024 13:25:39 GMT
Once again, built-out flaxibility comes into play. How is it that a train can be instructed to pass a failed signal, only to be tripped as if the driver has passed without authority? I wonder what they wouuld do if it was a catch-point? The same as they’d do at any signal with set of points in advance of it , secure the route before authorising trains past it. Ultimately the SCAT circuit can lead to delays (north end of the Met it can be particularly destructive to the service) but that’s obviously considered acceptable for the undoubted safety benefits it brings
I hesitate to keep doing this but, while the points would need to be secured on LU, the points would not be secured on Network Rail.
For those interested, suppose it was necessary to authorise trains to pass signal W360 at danger. W360 is the junction signal on the Up line which authorises trains to proceed either to the LU station or onto the National Rail lines to Point Pleasant Junction and Clapham Junction. A diagram is available on the main site
For the purposes of this explanation we shall ignore the ground frame as, I believe, it has been abolished. We shall authorise a District Line train to pass the signal at danger and proceed into the LU station.
Before authorising the signal to be passed at danger you would:
Make sure that the line is clear and safe to run on up to and including the overlap of the next signal, W356. This you would do by observing your overview diagram (see photos.signalling.org/picture?/12306/category/1194-2007 ) and ensuring that all track circuits are clear. If, for example, you have a track circuit showing occupied when clear due to a failure you'll need to do a bit more work, but we won't worry about that.
Make sure all points are in the required position. To do this you would get out your route card which will show you all of the point ends that need to be set and in what position they must be in. In this case your route card will tell you that W698 points must be in the normal position (set for the LU station). You would place these points in the normal position by operating the individual point switch. The individual point switches are the black knobs that you can see above the route-setting panel in this picture photos.signalling.org/picture?/12107/category/1194-2007 You must ensure that the yellow light with the N next to it (N for normal) is lit. This is showing you that the points are detected and locked in the normal position. If you do not have that light you will need to get them secured on the ground. You must carefully observe this indication. You must place a reminder appliance on this switch to prevent you from mistakenly operating it. If possible you will then close the book containing your route cards and ask a colleague to come over and check your route setting. You will get them to get the route card out themselves and not give them the route card you were using (in case you were using the wrong one) and you will ask them to make sure everything is set correctly. If you do not have a handy colleague you will shut the book and then start again yourself as if you were checking somebody else's work.
You will place reminder appliances on the route setting buttons controlling any conflicting routes to prevent you from clearing conflicting signals. In this case there aren't any, but if we were authorising the train to proceed to the National Rail lines then W359 would be a conflicting signal and we would place a reminder appliance on that signal's control.
Now we are ready. If possible we will now call the route on the route setting panel. If the route calls then we know that we've set the route correctly. If the route fails to call (for example because we have set the points incorrectly) then it will show us we've made a mistake. Calling the route will give us back the benefit of the interlocking and will also prevent us from signalling conflicting moves. However it may not be possible to do this. If we have a track circuit failure we won't be able to call the route. Also, for example, if we were authorising a train to enter a possession. If it is not possible to call the route we must stop trains on any opposite or adjacent line that could be fouled by the movement if the route is set incorrectly. So in this case we would have to stop trains on the Up District Line at W359. We would place a reminder on W359. This is because, if we have set the route wrong, the Up Line would be fouled by our train turning right and going towards Point Pleasant Junction. When one train has passed safely over the route it will not then be necessary to stop trains on opposite or adjacent lines when authorising subsequent trains to pass W360 at danger as we know the route is correctly set. If, however, we then alter the route we will again need to stop trains on opposite or adjacent lines, though only the first time. But every time we alter the route, we must stop trains on opposite or adjacent lines that could be fouled for the first train.
Now we are ready. As Colin says the conversation with the driver should go something like this:
Due to a signalling equipment failure I am unable to clear W360 signal. Please repeat this message back to me.
Driver repeats.
That is correct driver. So, when authorised, I will require you to pass W360 signal at danger, proceed cautiously through the section and then obey all other signals. Please repeat this message back to me.
Driver repeats.
That is correct driver. I can now authorise you, the driver of *train* to pass W360 signal at danger.
Other scripts are available, but what you're supposed to get in the conversation is:
Why the signal is to be passed at danger. How far the movement can proceed. Instructions for infrastructure where applicable (mainly level crossings and SPAD indicators, neither of which are relevant here).
Proceed at caution.
Times when it will be necessary to secure points when passing signals at danger are during temporary block working (all point ends), emergency special working (points which do not have detection only) and if you have mechanical point detection and no FPL is fitted (or you cannot be sure that it has correctly engaged).
However I don't think that's really what brigham was getting at there. The point I'm sure he was making is that we have here a situation where the driver is authorised to pass a signal at danger and yet a safety device designed to intervene when a signal is passed at danger without authority is still intervening to bring a train full of passengers to a sharp and potentially rather violent stop. This should not happen, I agree with him. I'm the last person in the world who would want more of a train to be a computer, but it does seem that whereas this was necessary in the past, on a modern train like an S Stock it should surely be possible to install an override button or switch to prevent the emergency brakes kicking in when a train passes a signal at danger with authority. Whether an automatic speed limit of 10 mph should then be imposed is another matter that has already been discussed. But it shouldn't be necessary for the train to be brought to a sudden stop.
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Post by t697 on Oct 2, 2024 16:33:58 GMT
Not easy to contrive a suitably safe method of overriding the trip only when an authorisation to pass at danger has been given. And even if that was accomplished, one would still have to stop and reset the tripcock which would have been tripped by the trainstop. So the only benefit would be a less harsh brake application. You'd still have the intentional delays that help provide safety in these circumstances.
If you just gave the T/Op an override button, there are several scenarios of unintentional or deliberate misuse foreseeable.
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brigham
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Post by brigham on Oct 2, 2024 16:56:52 GMT
Well put. If the safety device was a catch-point, it would be clipped and scotched out of use, before authority to pass the signal was given. Same with the trainstop. It needs to be secured out of use for the duration of the emergency working.
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Post by t697 on Oct 2, 2024 18:41:42 GMT
But then there's no protection against an outright SPAD of the failed signal. Or am I missing something?
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brigham
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Post by brigham on Oct 3, 2024 16:41:18 GMT
The signal has failed. The only possibile SPAD is if a driver passes the failed signal without authority.
There's no protection against that.
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Post by t697 on Oct 3, 2024 20:31:59 GMT
We should agree to disagree. If a first train through stops, gets permission to proceed and does so, but the next one just SPADs with the failed signal's trainstop pegged down, it can proceed unchecked to a potential collision. OK in this specific site maybe, as others have told us there is quite good sighting so driving on line of sight might be enough to prevent collision. Not so at many other LUL locations. And in the past, warning each driver at the previous station was a practice, but as at least one of the Stratford collisions showed, easily not enough given an adverse combination of circumstances. Risks acceptable in 1953 aren't anymore. The East Putney repair does seem to be working now.
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Post by tut on Oct 3, 2024 21:23:15 GMT
We should agree to disagree. If a first train through stops, gets permission to proceed and does so, but the next one just SPADs with the failed signal's trainstop pegged down, it can proceed unchecked to a potential collision. OK in this specific site maybe, as others have told us there is quite good sighting so driving on line of sight might be enough to prevent collision. Not so at many other LUL locations. And in the past, warning each driver at the previous station was a practice, but as at least one of the Stratford collisions showed, easily not enough given an adverse combination of circumstances. Risks acceptable in 1953 aren't anymore. The East Putney repair does seem to be working now. In this case I cannot disagree with you in the slightest. On no account should the train stop be pegged down for the duration of the failure. As you say there would then be no protection against a train SPADing W361. We would then have a situation where a train would be given a full main aspect yellow at the previous signal (W359 or W353) and could then proceed normally without any warning towards W361 at danger. In this case the train stop should be operative. That's what it's there for. The train stop should intervene to stop a train which has a bona fide SPAD at the defective signal. Probably this would apply even more in this case as, with trains working through a failure, there is a greater likelihood that a train will be not far ahead. The signal being defective is no excuse at all to disable the safety system all the time. No no it should intervene to stop any train which passes W361 at danger without authority.
What we might have to agree to disagree about is whether the train strop should intervene to stop trains which pass W361 at danger with authority. This is not only clearly "non-optimal" on the face of it, but it is a safety risk. Bringing even a lightly loaded train to a sharp stop is not but a little thing (hence the PA drivers have to make to warn passengers when applying the rule). If the train is crush-loaded it really isn't good. Not at all.
I also don't find the potential for misuse particularly compelling. You could say that about any number of the cut-out switches on trains. But that's why you train and recruit the proper people for the job. That's the point of having the people in the first place to be trained to apply the proper procedures when things are going wrong. It's a standard feature of main line TPWS and a good and useful one at that. Indeed if the TPWS train stop override is not used when passing a signal at danger with authority then the forms will come out of the folders!
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Oct 3, 2024 22:59:05 GMT
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Post by imran on Oct 4, 2024 15:06:36 GMT
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Post by 35b on Oct 4, 2024 17:01:08 GMT
No surprise - MPs, and especially those for Putney, have long been important voices on the future of the branch, to my certain knowledge at least as far back as David Mellor.
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Post by starlight73 on Oct 5, 2024 16:00:43 GMT
Currently there’s a Network Rail signal failure near East Putney again, meaning the District is suspended south of Parsons Green! Is it the same fault or a different one?
Edit 1749 - it has been resolved
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Post by Dstock7080 on Oct 6, 2024 11:27:54 GMT
Is it the same fault or a different one? UP signal W362.
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Post by spsmiler on Oct 6, 2024 22:19:16 GMT
Good, this is the one of the best ways to get issues investigated and hopefully resolved
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Post by roman80 on Oct 8, 2024 6:35:50 GMT
At least from today the indicator boards at Putney Bridge are showing some train information. As always, destination is a bit of a lottery eastbound due to known issues, but better than the nothing during the last month.
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Post by hummusn on Oct 9, 2024 10:13:33 GMT
At least from today the indicator boards at Putney Bridge are showing some train information. As always, destination is a bit of a lottery eastbound due to known issues, but better than the nothing during the last month. Reminds me, at Parsons Green the indicator boards on the Eastbound always just say "District Line" rather than specifying a destination. What's the reason for this?
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Post by Dstock7080 on Oct 9, 2024 11:49:28 GMT
Has been discussed before, trying to find specific thread. Mainly due to the interaction between transmitting NR signalling equipment from Wimbledon SCC and receiving at LU Putney Bridge. Hopefully, once CBTC moves down to East Putney the prediction will be more accurate for Putney Bridge-Earl's Court.
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Post by youngmale1967 on Oct 10, 2024 11:34:49 GMT
Train description is limited from Wimbledon. They are City, Edgware Road, High Street Kensington, Earl’s Court & Parsons Green. Due to a number of issues from long standing (been going on for years) faults, wrong or corrupted timetable, fault with programme machine & wrong/no information. Hopefully once Parsons Green desk closes the reliability should improve a lot from Putney Bridge eastbound. As for the Wimbledon this all depends on track failures as this messes up the data that’s on Network Rail.
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roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
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Post by roythebus on Oct 10, 2024 13:30:09 GMT
What would you like them to say? The delays are due to a recurring signal failure on Network Rail infrastructure, which they have basically said (if not quite in those exact words). Things like "speed control after tripping" are just meaningless words to most people. Sounds like something the "no drugs at work" people would be interested in!!
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roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
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Post by roythebus on Oct 10, 2024 13:41:12 GMT
When I was a guard at PG in the early 1970s the training school used to teach us that when tripping past, the motorman should run at speed at which he could count the sleepers. On the Bakerloo there was an incident between Paddington and Marylebone IIRC, train tripped past, driver reset and carried on slowly, then BANG! He fund the train in front. At the inquiry they asked what he was doing. "counting the sleepers" was his reply. The trining school changed their words after that.
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Post by starlight73 on Oct 10, 2024 18:46:10 GMT
Has been discussed before, trying to find specific thread. Mainly due to the interaction between transmitting NR signalling equipment from Wimbledon SCC and receiving at LU Putney Bridge. I found this old thread which discusses how Network Rail headcodes are assigned to LU trains, if it’s useful
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