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Post by spsmiler on Mar 7, 2023 15:33:07 GMT
Mod comment [goldenarrow] - Thread split from ‘SSR Engineering Work 25th & 26th February 2023’ threadIf people are "confused" by messages on S stock, perhaps they shouldn't be out on their own. Never used to hear of people being "confused" before it became fashionable. 60 years ago people travelled around the UndergrounD without any confusion, and there wasn't anything like as much signage then. But people could read maps in those distant days The biggest problem with the S7 trains is them having two different paper maps inside - District line & Hamm City + Circle lines Other cities get around this by illuminating the stations showing the exact route the train will follow. Our railways here in London are sinking. by way of contrast the latest Class 777 trains in Merseyside have electronic (LCD?) maps that show the full route, a real-time indication showing where the train is along that route plus the expected time of arrival at each station!
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Post by d7666 on Mar 7, 2023 18:04:05 GMT
The biggest problem with the S7 trains is them having two different paper maps inside - District line & Hamm City + Circle lines Other cities get around this by illuminating the stations showing the exact route the train will follow. 2 maps is a problem ? ![:o](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/shocked.png) What other city has a single illuminated map containing anything as big as the entire SSR and all it's stations ? Cite please. And then illuminates it inside every metro car AND has 4 coloured lamps *** to illuminate that map with the right line's train because that will be the next 'problem' someone will raise. So provide a flat screen and illuminate pixels ? Are you paying for this ? X screens per car, xx cars per train, xxx trains, and so on. *** i.e. for SSR green and yellow and pink and maroon ?
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Mar 7, 2023 18:22:52 GMT
The problem with electronic maps is they're only useful as long as they work. If I had a pound for every time I've had an S stock with destination display problems......
At least paper map's don't fail to display themselves.
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Post by jimbo on Mar 7, 2023 18:47:19 GMT
When I was at Tower Hill on the Sunday a lot of non Londoners were confused by a train that was going to go eastwards was standing in a platform clearly signed as westbound with line diagrams to match. Confusion from an eastbound train leaving from the westbound platform reminded me of the aftermath of the 1979 Leyton eastbound collision. It was all over the front of the evening papers. People were coming off the District line trains at Mile End asking "how do I get to Stratford?" and we were redirecting them to the westbound Central Line platform where a special shuttle train was provided between those two stations for just that purpose. Without exception, they would ask if there was a bus they could take instead! After years of travelling westbound from that platform, and due to a train collision, we were asking them to 'trust us' and plunge eastbound into the westbound tunnel!
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trainwizard
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Post by trainwizard on Mar 7, 2023 22:42:58 GMT
2 maps is a problem ? ![:o](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/shocked.png) What other city has a single illuminated map containing anything as big as the entire SSR and all it's stations ? Cite please. And then illuminates it inside every metro car AND has 4 coloured lamps *** to illuminate that map with the right line's train because that will be the next 'problem' someone will raise. So provide a flat screen and illuminate pixels ? Are you paying for this ? X screens per car, xx cars per train, xxx trains, and so on. *** i.e. for SSR green and yellow and pink and maroon ? I agree that having 2 maps is not a problem, due to the constant "This is a ____ line train to _____" both in announcements and on the display (DMI? LED?), most tourists should be able to figure out which map to use. However, it is very likely that digital displays are the future of carriage maps. There are many cities with large metro systems and LCD displays, such as Tokyo, Wuhan, and Shenzhen. Beijing has OLED displays in its windows. Plus, you wouldn't need to display the entire SSR network - only the line the train is currently running as. As for "4 coloured lamps", wouldn't you just use a typical RGB display? Also, having a few LCD displays per carriage is not unusual. The new Overground and Elizabeth Line trains have them. The new Piccadilly (NTfL) trains will have them. These already display train status and next station, and future displays can include more information in the future. I'm not suggesting this is something the London Underground should have immediately (especially the transparent displays - a cool feature to have, but very expensive), but rather as a feature for trains in the future. I pondered whether I was in a world class city or a 3rd world city. A glitch in the LED display due to a temporary closure does not amount to a "3rd world city". A "3rd world city" has only a few rail lines with old diesel trains. A "3rd world city" gets excited when a new bus route is created. A "3rd world city" does not have a metro system (and if it does, it's probably small and in poor condition, or currently being built). A "3rd world city" does not have Crossrail projects, high speed rail, or a strong network of rail, subway, trams, buses, and bike infrastructure. Be grateful.Source: I come from a "3rd world city" with these characteristics. I am not implying that all "3rd world cities" have these characteristics.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Mar 8, 2023 1:20:37 GMT
The problem with electronic maps is they're only useful as long as they work. If I had a pound for every time I've had an S stock with destination display problems...... At least paper map's don't fail to display themselves. I was a on a train in the West Midlands the other day which has a brand new, full-screen display of the route ahead, including what the next station is. This is really good when it works - however, at one point it got stuck and didn't update for about four stations in a row.
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Post by d7666 on Mar 8, 2023 2:04:33 GMT
My use of the term lamps was sarcasm to light the "problem" to help the "confused" .
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Post by spsmiler on Mar 11, 2023 13:45:04 GMT
2 maps is a problem ? ![:o](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/shocked.png) What other city has a single illuminated map containing anything as big as the entire SSR and all it's stations ? Cite please. And then illuminates it inside every metro car AND has 4 coloured lamps *** to illuminate that map with the right line's train because that will be the next 'problem' someone will raise. So provide a flat screen and illuminate pixels ? Are you paying for this ? X screens per car, xx cars per train, xxx trains, and so on. *** i.e. for SSR green and yellow and pink and maroon ? A few photos, 1) The situation here in London, two paper maps showing different lines on S7 trains. Tourists and other passengers who rarely use these trains do not always notice that these maps are different and in the absence of lights at stations showing the full route of that specific journey they find this situation to be somewhat confusing. ![](http://citytransport.info/special/OnTrainInfo/London.jpg) 2) Two maps from Paris - RER and Metro ![](http://citytransport.info/special/OnTrainInfo/Paris.jpg) 3) Hong Kong - and older train (the green 'direction of travel' arrows and next stations flash) and a newer train with an LCD display ![](http://citytransport.info/special/OnTrainInfo/HK1.jpg) ![](http://citytransport.info/special/OnTrainInfo/HK2.jpg) Laggard London is still in the steam train era - nostalgia style paper maps are not the issue, the problem is when passengers are confused because you have not adopted the clearest and simplest to understand methods of making necessary information available to passengers - even those from nations that use different written word characters sets and for whom our alphabet is 'a challenge' I am also critical of the latest Overground and Elizabeth line trains for not including full route maps in their LCD display sequences.
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Post by spsmiler on Mar 13, 2023 17:47:17 GMT
]I was a on a train in the West Midlands the other day which has a brand new, full-screen display of the route ahead, including what the next station is. This is really good when it works - however, at one point it got stuck and didn't update for about four stations in a row. Was this one of the new ones? (Bombardier Adventra trains but with corridor connections) The new Stadler Merseyrail trains have a letter M that moves along the map to show your progress in that journey. I've not yet been able to travel to see these for myself but am hoping to do this eventually. Perhaps when there are more running and the chances of catching them are better.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Mar 13, 2023 18:22:24 GMT
I did see one on a 197, but the one on that worked flawlessly for the two stops I was on it. The one that failed was on a recently refurbished train (possibly a 172) on a Coventry to Birmingham New Street stopping service.
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Post by Hutch on Mar 13, 2023 20:46:06 GMT
by way of contrast the latest Class 777 trains in Merseyside have electronic (LCD?) maps that show the full route, a real-time indication showing where the train is along that route plus the expected time of arrival at each station! Check out Geoff Marshall's recent Youtube video. He makes a comment in that regard.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Mar 13, 2023 21:47:22 GMT
Other YouTubers are available:
Anyway, I think we are drifting away from Engineering work.
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Post by d7666 on Mar 31, 2023 0:21:41 GMT
777s.
This week I have been ooop norf including Merseyside mainly after 507s and 508s - but me being me covered the 777 workings on the Kirkby route and travelled on 4 different 777s.***
I knew I was going there which is why I did not respond earlier. Now that I have seen what 777s have in real life, I can.
None of the e-maps on any of those 4 units I saw displayed "full route map" or "expected times of arrival at each station". No idea what they were supposed to be showing and or if there was a fault somewhere, but they were not, for me, useful, me not being that familiar with every suburban shack.
And, if they are supposed to work like described, trying to cram in Upminster to Richmond on one screen of their size would lead to illegable for anyone without using opera glasses.
The longest Merseyrail service is Southport to Hunts Cross = 23 stations that is about half the 41/42 of Upminster to Richmond or Ealing Broadway, and Merseyrail excluding main line has only 2 line interchanges within Wirral and Northern lines, or 3 if you count City line; those District services have 18/19 interchanges excluding main line. I doubt any e-display would have the clarity and resolution of a printed car map if that e-display were crammed into the same space.
None of the photo images upthread too have anything like the number of District line stations. The RER A map has about 3/4 of the number but less branches. And I have seen those RER maps myself, so my post was not in ignorance of these things.
If 'use a bigger display' is anyone's response, then that introduces much further cost and complexity.
I just don't think blindly attempting to do what is seen in other cities directly applies simply because the SSL route complexity is, well, more complex.
Further, it is alleged having two car maps in S-stock is confusing. Even if e-displays were introduced, there would still have to be those same two car maps in each car, so now your non anorak customer has three diagrams to chose from; if they can't figure 1 from 2 they sure won't get 1 from 3. The carmaps will have to be there still, and the immediate knee jerk response to removing them is "what about when the e-displays fail" or service disruption that does not get indicated.
I am NOT arguing against the use of e-displays; what I am saying is I do not think the end result will be as clear as the current paper car maps because those other examples are somewhat simpler topologies than routes worked by S-stock.
*** off topic for for those who like to know these things, travelled on 40 different 507 and 508 units along with the 4 777s all in one day, and the entire DC network twice over except Hunts Cross and Kirkby did once each.
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Post by d7666 on Jun 30, 2024 13:01:25 GMT
777s. This week I have been ooop norf including Merseyside mainly after 507s and 508s - but me being me covered the 777 workings on the Kirkby route and travelled on 4 different 777s.*** I knew I was going there which is why I did not respond earlier. Now that I have seen what 777s have in real life, I can. None of the e-maps on any of those 4 units I saw displayed "full route map" or "expected times of arrival at each station". No idea what they were supposed to be showing and or if there was a fault somewhere, but they were not, for me, useful, me not being that familiar with every suburban shack. . Bumping this one, even if it is a digression from the subject heading. That "this week" above referred to March 2023. I was up there again last week (June 2024) and used Merseyrail for 777s (to get to 507s), to Headbolt (for battery traction) and assorted other moves; travelled on 12 different 777s. And I report the same thing. NONE of these units I travelled on displayed "full route map" nor are there any hard copy diagram maps (or none that I could find) posted in any unit. Admittedly I did not walk through every car of every unit on every train. All I can repeat then is I don't know what they are supposed to display or they have the same fault as 15 months ago and useless to anyone unfamiliar with their network. I'd suggest the concept of one way trains around the Wirral line loop must baffle any visitor, and they really do need a diagram to figure out how you get from (say) Lime Street to (say) Moorfields - which is where most visitors might be. Get on a 507 - which are still about - and you have maps in every car. I know which is simpler.
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Post by spsmiler on Jul 1, 2024 13:47:04 GMT
I hear what you say and understand the issues you describe.
One of the great things about discussion forums (like this) is that people are exposed to points of view which are sometimes different to their own, and after evaluating the new information it is possible to revise one's own point of view.
I still very much favour electronic map information that includes a diagrammatic map and also clearly shows the route that specific journey is taking plus stopping pattern, etc.
However, yes, paper maps do have their uses and should be shown too. In the case of the S7 trains the ideal map will be one which shows all three services (pink, yellow, green) on the one map. For added clarity the District line Edgware Road - Wimbledon service should be shown in a different shade (or a special pattern) so that the viewer can see how services operate.
Oh also, since LCD displays usually scroll through a range of information the the KISS principle means that there is still a case for simple paper maps - but only 'as well as' the real-time electronic versions.
KISS = keep it simple stupid so that even people who do not know much about travel will understand it
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Post by brigham on Jul 1, 2024 19:10:16 GMT
Paper diagrams are a simple and inexpensive way of conveying route information to passengers.
IF, and only if, they refer to the actual route that the train is on.
The concept of having a choice of routes shown, only one of which is the ACTUAL one being operated, is bizarre and baffling.
If stock isn't confined to a single route, then the diagrams need to be easily interchangeable. It isn't difficult; it was done on B-Type buses ages ago.
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class411
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Post by class411 on Jul 3, 2024 17:13:47 GMT
This is all very true.
What people who belittle those who complain about multiple maps don't seem to have thought through is that whilst they may be completely au fait with how the maps relate to the line the train is on, the same may not be true for those unfamiliar with the line, or London generally, and certainly will not be straightforward for those with limited English.
So, Visitors to London carefully (and correctly) work out which train to catch, and, upon doing so, may well find themselves looking at a map that does not mention their destination.
This is not good performance from TFL.
On a side note, the maps with the illuminated dots for stations work well after you have worked out whether the illuminated stations are the ones that have been visited, or the ones that are about to be visited.
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Post by spsmiler on Jul 4, 2024 18:12:37 GMT
Oh I would imagine that most people would quickly understand that the illuminated stations are yet to be visited if the next station is flashing and then goes dark after it has been visited.
Another solution is with LCD screens to include direction of travel arrows in the display, etc, as per the lower two photos I added to a message earlier in this thread.
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class411
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Post by class411 on Jul 5, 2024 8:54:47 GMT
Well yes, that is exactly what I meant. You have to wait until the train has arrived at / left (depending on how they system works) the next station after you got on.
As you say, direction of travel indicators are a perfectly good answer, but I don't remember seeing those on any of the 21 Metros I've used. (I can't guarantee that there weren't any, but I think I'd have noticed and remembered.)
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Post by spsmiler on Jul 5, 2024 12:03:28 GMT
Using illuminated arrows direction of travel indicators should be easy to include - even on paper maps.
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Post by d7666 on Jul 5, 2024 13:23:18 GMT
In these days of digital displays, why have the stations fixed to one orientation on a digital map and then have direction indicators ?
Throwing in an idea here.
Why retain an electronic map general layout that merely repeats the paper map adding an indicator. Why not a map that reverses its left-right display orientation dependent on travel direction ?
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class411
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Post by class411 on Jul 5, 2024 14:08:48 GMT
I think you'd need to test that out on a decent sample of people.
I think I'd feel a little disoriented if I suddenly found the diagrams reversed.
On the other hand, people who did not have decades of experience of the relative station positions being fixed might find it much easier.
It's certainly something for TPTB* to bear in mind.
* The Powers That Be.
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Post by jimbo on Jul 5, 2024 20:39:58 GMT
When the Victoria Line opened the car line diagrams were handed, i.e. Brixton was at the south end of the line whether you looked to the right or left side of the train. This was not introduced for branched lines, as it was thought too confusing for travellers. Also can't work when trains are turned through their normal daily workings, e.g. Kennington loop. When the Jubilee split from the Bakerloo, I think those lines also had handed line diagrams in cars. It may not have been maintained. Did it benefit travellers enough to be worth the trouble? Examples here
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Post by d7666 on Jul 5, 2024 22:09:51 GMT
ISTR too that Jubilee and Bakerloo had handed diagrams at one time; if not those then somewhere I recall seeing them (my Vic line travel has always been very limited so can't comment).
Electronic displays do not have the limit of being in a fixed orientation w.r.t. car/train - which is part of my point.
I've really raised it as a point of discussion - I can see pros and cons to both side - but I don't think it should just be kicked out because technology of several decades ago could not do it so they did not do it, nor on the "but we have always done it this way" argument.
And, as I often comment with something like this, *we* in here are 'experts' on the system most of us know it back to front and upside down - info maps are for travellers far less familiar, and I do not accept that someone unfamiliar with any line will be any more confused with handed diagrams than unhanded.
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Post by Chris L on Jul 6, 2024 3:07:43 GMT
Using illuminated arrows direction of travel indicators should be easy to include - even on paper maps. In these days of digital displays, why have the stations fixed to one orientation on a digital map and then have direction indicators ? Throwing in an idea here. Why retain an electronic map general layout that merely repeats the paper map adding an indicator. Why not a map that reverses its left-right display orientation dependent on travel direction ? It can work on north/south diagrams. The Victoria line used to have different diagrams on either side of the cars so direction of travel was there to be seen. Back in the 80s I tried the same for D stock trains and there were numerous complaints because in people's minds it didn't align with the Tube map etc. I was called an idiot by somebody who got through to me on the phone.
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Post by johnlinford on Jul 6, 2024 6:01:15 GMT
I think there's definitely been a change in how people navigate - I remember being taught to use a map and it being explained how you don't turn the map relative to where you're facing, you make sure you know your cardinal directions.
These days most satnavs and phones provide turn by turn instructions, often with the map orienting to your direction on the screen to provide as much information about your immediate future as possible.
I also recall Chris L's complaints about line diagrams being "backwards" because they don't follow the tube map...
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Post by billbedford on Jul 6, 2024 8:23:53 GMT
Why retain an electronic map general layout that merely repeats the paper map adding an indicator. Why not a map that reverses its left-right display orientation dependent on travel direction ? You are assuming everyone reads from left to right.
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class411
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Post by class411 on Jul 6, 2024 8:36:26 GMT
Well, the diagrams are in English, and anyone who doesn't read English from left to right is going to have severe problems.
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Post by d7666 on Jul 6, 2024 13:15:30 GMT
Indeed. Here, use of English, which reads left to right, over rules right to left, which does not usually tend to be English.
I can see Chris' point about this don't work with hard copy diagrams; indeed I already said that, but once again, today we have technology that was not available back then. That something failed because of issue X does not mean do not re-try if X is no longer a problem. This 'discussion point' refers to doing this with electronic displays driven by direction of train travel, it is not about re-introducing handed paper car maps.
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Post by Chris L on Jul 6, 2024 15:59:53 GMT
The problem with S stock trains is that they were ordered with dot matrix displays. The Elizabeth line trains have displays that can show a variety of useful information including sections of the route diagram.
Positioning them across the train takes away the problem of direction of travel.
I suppose it is too much to hope that the S stock trains get replacement displays in the near future.
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