Muti-route Car Line Diagrams

The problem with electronic maps is they're only useful as long as they work. If I had a pound for every time I've had an S stock with destination display problems......

At least paper map's don't fail to display themselves.

I agree that having 2 maps is not a problem, due to the constant "This is a ____ line train to _____" both in announcements and on the display (DMI? LED?), most tourists should be able to figure out which map to use.

However, it is very likely that digital displays are the future of carriage maps. There are many cities with large metro systems and LCD displays, such as Tokyo, Wuhan, and Shenzhen. Beijing has OLED displays in its windows.

Plus, you wouldn't need to display the entire SSR network - only the line the train is currently running as.

As for "4 coloured lamps", wouldn't you just use a typical RGB display? 

Also, having a few LCD displays per carriage is not unusual. The new Overground and Elizabeth Line trains have them. The new Piccadilly (NTfL) trains will have them. These already display train status and next station, and future displays can include more information in the future.

I'm not suggesting this is something the London Underground should have immediately (especially the transparent displays - a cool feature to have, but very expensive), but rather as a feature for trains in the future.


A glitch in the LED display due to a temporary closure does not amount to a "3rd world city". A "3rd world city" has only a few rail lines with old diesel trains. A "3rd world city" gets excited when a new bus route is created. A "3rd world city" does not have a metro system (and if it does, it's probably small and in poor condition, or currently being built). A "3rd world city" does not have Crossrail projects, high speed rail, or a strong network of rail, subway, trams, buses, and bike infrastructure.
Be grateful.
Source: I come from a "3rd world city" with these characteristics. I am not implying that all "3rd world cities" have these characteristics.

My use of the term lamps was sarcasm to light the "problem" to help the "confused" .

Was this one of the new ones? (Bombardier Adventra trains but with corridor connections)

The new Stadler Merseyrail trains have a letter M that moves along the map to show your progress in that journey. I've not yet been able to travel to see these for myself but am hoping to do this eventually. Perhaps when there are more running and the chances of catching them are better.

Check out Geoff Marshall's recent Youtube video. He makes a comment in that regard.

777s.

This week I have been ooop norf including Merseyside mainly after 507s and 508s - but me being me covered the 777 workings on the Kirkby route and travelled on 4 different 777s.***

I knew I was going there which is why I did not respond earlier. Now that I have seen what 777s have in real life, I can.

None of the e-maps on any of those 4 units I saw displayed "full route map" or "expected times of arrival at each station". No idea what they were supposed to be showing and or if there was a fault somewhere, but they were not, for me, useful, me not being that familiar with every suburban shack.

And, if they are supposed to work like described, trying to cram in Upminster to Richmond on one screen of their size would lead to illegable for anyone without using opera glasses.

The longest Merseyrail service is Southport to Hunts Cross = 23 stations that is about half the 41/42 of Upminster to Richmond or Ealing Broadway, and Merseyrail excluding main line has only 2 line interchanges within Wirral and Northern lines, or 3 if you count City line; those District services have 18/19 interchanges excluding main line. I doubt any e-display would have the clarity and resolution of a printed car map if that e-display were crammed into the same space.

None of the photo images upthread too have anything like the number of District line stations. The RER A map has about 3/4 of the number but less branches. And I have seen those RER maps myself, so my post was not in ignorance of these things.

If 'use a bigger display' is anyone's response, then that introduces much further cost and complexity.

I just don't think blindly attempting to do what is seen in other cities directly applies simply because the SSL route complexity is, well, more complex.


Further, it is alleged having two car maps in S-stock is confusing. Even if e-displays were introduced, there would still have to be those same two car maps in each car, so now your non anorak customer has three diagrams to chose from; if they can't figure 1 from 2 they sure won't get 1 from 3. The carmaps will have to be there still, and the immediate knee jerk response to removing them is "what about when the e-displays fail" or service disruption that does not get indicated.


I am NOT arguing against the use of e-displays; what I am saying is I do not think the end result will be as clear as the current paper car maps because those other examples are somewhat simpler topologies than routes worked by S-stock.



***
off topic for for those who like to know these things, travelled on 40 different 507 and 508 units along with the 4 777s all in one day, and the entire DC network twice over except Hunts Cross and Kirkby did once each.

I hear what you say and understand the issues you describe.

One of the great things about discussion forums (like this) is that people are exposed to points of view which are sometimes different to their own, and after evaluating the new information it is possible to revise one's own point of view.

I still very much favour electronic map information that includes a diagrammatic map and also clearly shows the route that specific journey is taking plus stopping pattern, etc.

However, yes, paper maps do have their uses and should be shown too. In the case of the S7 trains the ideal map will be one which shows all three services (pink, yellow, green) on the one map. For added clarity the District line Edgware Road - Wimbledon service should be shown in a different shade (or a special pattern) so that the viewer can see how services operate.

Oh also, since LCD displays usually scroll through a range of information the the KISS principle means that there is still a case for simple paper maps - but only 'as well as' the real-time electronic versions.

KISS = keep it simple stupid so that even people who do not know much about travel will understand it

This is all very true.

What people who belittle those who complain about multiple maps don't seem to have thought through is that whilst they may be completely au fait with how the maps relate to the line the train is on, the same may not be true for those unfamiliar with the line, or London generally, and certainly will not be straightforward for those with limited English.

So, Visitors to London carefully (and correctly) work out which train to catch, and, upon doing so, may well find themselves looking at a map that does not mention their destination.

This is not good performance from TFL.


On a side note, the maps with the illuminated dots for stations work well after you have worked out whether the illuminated stations are the ones that have been visited, or the ones that are about to be visited.

Well yes, that is exactly what I meant. You have to wait until the train has arrived at / left (depending on how they system works) the next station after you got on.

As you say, direction of travel indicators are a perfectly good answer, but I don't remember seeing those on any of the 21 Metros I've used. (I can't guarantee that there weren't any, but I think I'd have noticed and remembered.)

In these days of digital displays, why have the stations fixed to one orientation on a digital map and then have direction indicators ?

Throwing in an idea here.

Why retain an electronic map general layout that merely repeats the paper map adding an indicator. Why not a map that reverses its left-right display orientation dependent on travel direction ?

When the Victoria Line opened the car line diagrams were handed, i.e. Brixton was at the south end of the line whether you looked to the right or left side of the train. This was not introduced for branched lines, as it was thought too confusing for travellers. Also can't work when trains are turned through their normal daily workings, e.g. Kennington loop. When the Jubilee split from the Bakerloo, I think those lines also had handed line diagrams in cars. It may not have been maintained. Did it benefit travellers enough to be worth the trouble?

Examples here

It can work on north/south diagrams. The Victoria line used to have different diagrams on either side of the cars so direction of travel was there to be seen.

Back in the 80s I tried the same for D stock trains and there were numerous complaints because in people's minds it didn't align with the Tube map etc. I was called an idiot by somebody who got through to me on the phone. 

You are assuming everyone reads from left to right. 

Indeed. Here, use of English, which reads left to right, over rules right to left, which does not usually tend to be English.

I can see Chris' point about this don't work with hard copy diagrams; indeed I already said that, but once again, today we have technology that was not available back then. That something failed because of issue X does not mean do not re-try if X is no longer a problem. This 'discussion point' refers to doing this with electronic displays driven by direction of train travel, it is not about re-introducing handed paper car maps.