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Post by zbang on Apr 26, 2024 23:02:15 GMT
it's possible I missed something along the way, however-
"life-expired track recording vehicle"
Does that mean simply that it's old, that parts are failing and can't easily be replaced, or what? (There's plenty of old railway equipment out there operating happily.)
If it's a matter of age.... if the equipment can do the job, why is this an issue? Maybe it needs to be towed by a signals-compliant machine, but that doesn't seem like a large impediment.
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Post by xtmw on Apr 27, 2024 10:07:26 GMT
TSRs not removed as of today so let's hope they're lifted within the next few days to put an end to this mess !
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Post by rs2ooo on Apr 28, 2024 17:46:59 GMT
TSRs not removed as of today so let's hope they're lifted within the next few days to put an end to this mess ! I've seen paperwork submitted first thing Friday 26th for the immediate removal of TSRs between East Acton and White City at the very least. |
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Post by rs2ooo on Apr 28, 2024 17:56:24 GMT
The timeline for a full and proper replacement of the TRV, references with confidence, the beginning of 2027.
But who knows what challenges may come about between now and then that may postpone that.
72TS with recording kit will be on the NL Tues night 30th, then another run late May, with a view to clearing outstanding TSRs that are in place due to lack of up to date geometry data.
Back to the CEN, a lot of people did indeed work around the clock to pull that off using TMM771, and it went far better than anyone ever expected, albeit not 100% perfectly due to some noise in the data.
The TRV istelf, I think carried out 3 TH runs to achieve the data required to cross reference with TMM771's data.
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gefw
Gone - but still interested
Posts: 210
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Post by gefw on Apr 28, 2024 18:51:20 GMT
The timeline for a full and proper replacement of the TRV, references with confidence, the beginning of 2027. But who knows what challenges may come about between now and then that may postpone that. Lets hope recent experience has clarified the spares holding for the TRV rolling stock and perhaps more secured. Not sure who maintains & supports the recording equipment, but perhaps some form of partial upgrade/modernisation is justified to bridge the gap to the new TRV being ready. - This is the sort of work that could be done in house (or with framework contractors) and therefore commenced quickly. |
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jimbo
Posts: 1,921
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Post by jimbo on Apr 28, 2024 20:43:05 GMT
Was the 1972 stock touring the system the one fitted for regular service on the Bakerloo, or did it need extra equipment fitting for this task? The 1972 stock is the only type still passed for widespread trips about the network.
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jimbo
Posts: 1,921
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Post by jimbo on Apr 28, 2024 20:44:24 GMT
Tender evaluation of track geometry measuring equipment is underway with contract award scheduled for mid 2022. The project will mount the equipment on two sets of host wagons, to be hauled by battery locomotives across the network, replacing a single, life-expired track recording vehicle currently in operation, doubling recording capability. Slow progress in procuring this replacement capability meant modification was needed to the existing vehicle following commissioning of new signalling on the sub-surface lines. With this work now complete, a new project will explore allowing the vehicle to operate on the Bakerloo and Jubilee lines without need for special operating measures. ..... (Source TfL Programmes and Investment Committee on 15 December 2021) Has this contract been awarded? Two years on now! |
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Post by xtmw on Apr 28, 2024 21:00:25 GMT
Back to the CEN, a lot of people did indeed work around the clock to pull that off using TMM771, and it went far better than anyone ever expected, albeit not 100% perfectly due to some noise in the data. The TRV istelf, I think carried out 3 TH runs to achieve the data required to cross reference with TMM771's data. Without the TRV I don't think anyone was expecting it to go well ! A massive well done for the engineers though and although some punters like to complain us on the forum will always be appreciative of the hard work and effort which goes into things like this. I think I speak for everyone here when I say that. Good to hear the TSRs are being removed and I have no doubt someone here will update us when they're fully removed |
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towerman
My status is now now widower
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Post by towerman on Apr 28, 2024 21:13:09 GMT
Hear!Hear!
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Post by rs2ooo on May 1, 2024 15:05:36 GMT
Lets hope recent experience has clarified the spares holding for the TRV rolling stock and perhaps more secured. Not sure who maintains & supports the recording equipment, but perhaps some form of partial upgrade/modernisation is justified to bridge the gap to the new TRV being ready. - This is the sort of work that could be done in house (or with framework contractors) and therefore commenced quickly. Spares is a real issue. Every musuem in the land has been raided, as has eBay  The more recent issues I believe are recording equipment specific, as opposed to Craven Stock parts. I've kind of followed the repair process with one eye open, and the investigation work and testing has been well beyond my levels of understanding, and seemingly far more complicated than you might expect for what on paper looks like a moderately straight forward fault finding excercise. Has this contract been awarded? Two years on now! I would guess yes, because a supplying company name has been used in correspondance that has been shared across a fairly wide distribution list, but I'd want to check and be certain that I've not misunderstood before sharing names. |
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Post by xtmw on May 1, 2024 15:38:07 GMT
I think the TRV was doing test runs on the District & Picc before working on other lines.
Why was the tamping unit used? Was it solely because no one knew how long the TRV would be out for? Or was it because certain elements can no longer be recorded with the TRV?
TSRs still remain in place!
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gefw
Gone - but still interested
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Post by gefw on May 2, 2024 10:00:24 GMT
Lets hope recent experience has clarified the spares holding for the TRV rolling stock and perhaps more secured. Not sure who maintains & supports the recording equipment, but perhaps some form of partial upgrade/modernisation is justified to bridge the gap to the new TRV being ready. - This is the sort of work that could be done in house (or with framework contractors) and therefore commenced quickly. Spares is a real issue. Every musuem in the land has been raided, as has eBay The more recent issues I believe are recording equipment specific, as opposed to Craven Stock parts. I've kind of followed the repair process with one eye open, and the investigation work and testing has been well beyond my levels of understanding, and seemingly far more complicated than you might expect for what on paper looks like a moderately straight forward fault finding excercise. The museum tours /calls must have been quite interesting - If the last issue was regarding the Cant measurements - I guess "old school" Gyros and measurement of angles relative to horizontal are involved (as used in military items of the same era?)  Is Cant measured in the ATMS kit employed/favoured on a number of LUL lines? |
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Post by zbang on May 2, 2024 15:58:05 GMT
I don't know the specifics of the TRV, but replacing bad sensors with newer design is pretty much a solved problem; might involve some signal conditioning (e.g. level shift or freq->voltage) or maybe a box that converts the new sensor's digital signal to the expected analogue of the logging system. It's simply a matter of will and money. I spend a lot of time at an aging steel mill working on this kind of stuff, and it's gotten a lot less expensive in the last 25 years.
In terms of a cant sensor, even high-quality semiconductor accelerometers are quite inexpensive and they easily interface to many (also inexpensive) industrial single board computers; those could be configured to output pretty much whatever is needed. Cost is probably under £1000 for the hardware and under a week for a competent engineer.
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Post by starlight73 on May 10, 2024 12:41:15 GMT
I saw the TRV at Acton Town yesterday afternoon. It was on the route to Ealing Common station. Perhaps headed to either Rayners Lane or Ruislip depot?
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Post by spsmiler on May 11, 2024 10:13:16 GMT
Temporary speed limits still remain on westbound Central line, Leytonstone - Stratford! Maybe more too but I changed trains at Stratford so cannot say about anywhere else.
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Post by starlight73 on May 11, 2024 13:34:45 GMT
I checked its movements on Intertube, and it was indeed doing runs on the District & Piccadilly like xtmw said above. When I saw it yesterday, it was headed for Ruislip depot. Hopefully it will get onto other lines in due course |
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Post by xtmw on May 11, 2024 18:41:27 GMT
TSRs still remain between Loughton - White City / Hainault - Leytonstone. A few TSRs have been lifted West of White City.
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Post by rs2ooo on May 17, 2024 9:07:25 GMT
I don't know the specifics of the TRV, but replacing bad sensors with newer design is pretty much a solved problem; might involve some signal conditioning (e.g. level shift or freq->voltage) or maybe a box that converts the new sensor's digital signal to the expected analogue of the logging system. It's simply a matter of will and money. I spend a lot of time at an aging steel mill working on this kind of stuff, and it's gotten a lot less expensive in the last 25 years. In terms of a cant sensor, even high-quality semiconductor accelerometers are quite inexpensive and they easily interface to many (also inexpensive) industrial single board computers; those could be configured to output pretty much whatever is needed. Cost is probably under £1000 for the hardware and under a week for a competent engineer. I honestly can't help with this since it is not my specialist area, only to say having been party to correspondance on the matter, the work involved has been extremely complex, far more than a layman like myself would otherwise give credit for. |
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Post by rs2ooo on May 17, 2024 9:08:28 GMT
I saw the TRV at Acton Town yesterday afternoon. It was on the route to Ealing Common station. Perhaps headed to either Rayners Lane or Ruislip depot? Around the time you posted this it was doing test runs between Acton / Northfields and T4 Loop in between traffic. |
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Post by xtmw on May 17, 2024 9:09:42 GMT
I believe it's also been doing some runs during engineering hours on the Northern ?
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Post by rs2ooo on May 17, 2024 9:13:51 GMT
TSRs still remain between Loughton - White City / Hainault - Leytonstone. A few TSRs have been lifted West of White City. I don't know if these TSRs remain in force now, my CEN involvement has come to an end, but I do know west of White City work was very successful, Hainault to Leytonstone was not part of the scope I was involved in, and work was successful between Lancaster Gate and Queensway, but within the remaining areas between White City and Loughton I believe there was noise in the data requiring further analysis. |
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Post by rs2ooo on May 17, 2024 9:18:15 GMT
Why was the tamping unit used? Simply because 72TS cannot obtain route approval for those locations, so the chosen solution was to use the Tamper to record cant (because the TRV currently cannot), and combine this cant data with geometry data the TRV can still obtain in order to create the complete picture of track condition. |
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Post by rs2ooo on May 17, 2024 9:20:22 GMT
I believe it's also been doing some runs during engineering hours on the Northern ? 28th May. Currently tentatively planned using 72TS just in case, but hopeful the TRV will be ready by then. Lots of problematic TSRs plaguing the NL currently. Previous runs on 16th and 30th April were using 72TS. |
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gefw
Gone - but still interested
Posts: 210
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Post by gefw on May 17, 2024 11:36:54 GMT
I don't know the specifics of the TRV, but replacing bad sensors with newer design is pretty much a solved problem; might involve some signal conditioning (e.g. level shift or freq->voltage) or maybe a box that converts the new sensor's digital signal to the expected analogue of the logging system. It's simply a matter of will and money. I spend a lot of time at an aging steel mill working on this kind of stuff, and it's gotten a lot less expensive in the last 25 years. In terms of a cant sensor, even high-quality semiconductor accelerometers are quite inexpensive and they easily interface to many (also inexpensive) industrial single board computers; those could be configured to output pretty much whatever is needed. Cost is probably under £1000 for the hardware and under a week for a competent engineer. I honestly can't help with this since it is not my specialist area, only to say having been party to correspondance on the matter, the work involved has been extremely complex, far more than a layman like myself would otherwise give credit for. I suspect the kit is a "one off" + very dated + obsolete which normally means documentation is sparce/hard to find. All credit to the Engineers involved (Hearne house?) to reverse Engineer the kit and find a fix/mod. |
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Post by spsmiler on May 17, 2024 15:58:57 GMT
Temporary speed limits still remain on westbound Central line, Leytonstone - Stratford! Maybe more too but I changed trains at Stratford so cannot say about anywhere else. Today I became more adventurous and travelled westbound all the way to Smile Bend (Mile End) and my smile really did become bent - into an unhappy frown. Partly this will be because 1992ts car No. 91179 had a lot of unsightly etching on the window glass (and internal partition glass), partly because it needed an external wash (the windows were very dirty) but mainly because the journey from Stratford to Mile End is one loooong slow-speed-zone and the speed really was slow. I did not time the journey but maybe I should. It was awfully tedious, especially as these two stations are a fair distance apart and with the tunnels being newer and straighter than most the trains normally travel at full speed. Went I returned home I went to Newbury Park (instead of Gants Hill) and whilst walking along the platform (to the way out) I noted that a departing westbound train was travelling so slowly that it looked like 'walking speed'. Although its a longer walk from home, I'll use this station next time I go anywhere. |
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Post by zbang on May 17, 2024 20:52:11 GMT
I suspect the kit is a "one off" + very dated + obsolete which normally means documentation is sparce/hard to find. All credit to the Engineers involved (Hearne house?) to reverse Engineer the kit and find a fix/mod. My point is simply that there is a modern sensor for practically anything, and certainly for quantities that were being measured 30 years ago. The interfaces may be different, but generally that's also a solved problem. It's simply a matter of doing the work.
The greater issue is usually whether those up the line want the work to be done at all, or actively want it not done.
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Post by plasmid on May 30, 2024 19:09:31 GMT
Central TSR's now lifted Eastbound Stratford to Mile End as of this afternoon, back to full speed. It was still slow Westbound this morning on the same section, presume that is lifted too.
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Post by xtmw on May 30, 2024 21:17:39 GMT
The majority of speed restrictions have been lifted/are being lifted.
I believe around 10 or so have been removed. Some TSRs will be in place until further notice.
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Post by spsmiler on May 30, 2024 22:32:34 GMT
Good news - I was going to make a short YouTube about the TSRs but then decided against it - because I could not think of a way to explain the situation without viewers pondering whether the tracks were safe to use - even at the lower speeds.
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Post by xtmw on May 31, 2024 20:21:45 GMT
The TSR between Leyton and Stratford (westbound) will be kept in place until further notice. All remaining TSRs have been lifted.
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