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Post by jimbo on May 8, 2023 20:40:04 GMT
Are there any restrictions on what people are allowed to carry with them on the tube? Yes, this is covered in section 9 of the Conditions of Carriage which apply to all TfL services (except river services and the cable car): ..... I recall in the distant past returning soccer fans from Wembley Park boarding a tube train with their rolled banner and poles which was a nuisance in a crowded train, so they smartly shoved it up through the emergency door at the end of the car out of the way. No problems until approaching Finchley Road it shattered the surface train detector mercury loop, setting signals to danger in the area for the rest of the return traffic rush!
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roythebus
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Post by roythebus on May 9, 2023 9:49:14 GMT
Good job Bertram Mills didn't try taking his giraffes on the Olympia shuttles then!
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brigham
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Post by brigham on May 10, 2023 7:45:29 GMT
Good job Bertram Mills didn't try taking his giraffes on the Olympia shuttles then! Giraffes know when to duck. I've seen a model of it...
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Post by ted672 on May 10, 2023 21:12:05 GMT
I noticed today when using the Northern line that while there are outside door release valves, there is no indication as to their purpose. I suspect that had there been a set of instructions as apparent on the South Westren Railway trains I also used, a clear-thinking customer may have used the valve to open a set doors an avoided the damage and some of the panic. I imagaine that internal door releases are not allowed.
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Post by AndrewPSSP on May 10, 2023 23:43:34 GMT
I think I recall these valves need a special key to be operated
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Post by Dstock7080 on May 11, 2023 4:53:57 GMT
On 1995 Stock they don’t require a key to operate
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on May 11, 2023 10:55:19 GMT
I believe that it is a deliberate decision not to label them, due to the possibility of misuse.
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Post by ted672 on May 11, 2023 16:55:48 GMT
I believe that it is a deliberate decision not to label them, due to the possibility of misuse. Perhaps this incident may bring about a change of mind. Maybe LU could ask the National Rail operators how much misue they experience with their clearly labelled release handles?
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Post by jamesb on May 11, 2023 19:02:08 GMT
IMO the main issue is about rapid communication with passengers in an emergency (or a perceived emergency), more than making external door valves visible. Could a generic automatic announcement be played every 15 seconds on a loop throughout the entire train when a passenger alarm is activated, such as "The driver is aware that the passenger alarm has been activated. Staff assistance is on the way"? Perhaps in a human, calm but authoratative voice... All that can be heard in the videos taken from inside the train is an urgent sounding beeping noise, which could feed into the anxiety rather than alleviate it. Having thought about my earlier post, maybe if a handle is pulled in more than one car, this could trigger the PEA system to go into 'panicking passengers mode' and default to playing a message to the entire train. The talk back facility doesn't seem to work well when passengers are panicking, multiple alarms are operated etc. If the driver has to leave the cab to investigate, they don't appear to be able to use the PA again until they have returned to cab. Maybe there could also be a readily accessible facility to operate the PA with a key from inside any car?
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Post by jimbo on May 11, 2023 20:02:40 GMT
The new Picc trains are being developed with conventional operation to start with, but following resignalling possible wandering attendant or no staff operation. The wandering attendant, remote control or emergency staff could make announcements through personal iPad device.
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Post by jimbo on May 11, 2023 20:40:03 GMT
..... I have seen footage from TfL station staff within 5 minutes of the reported start of the incident. ..... But 5 minutes is a very long time when you are finding difficulty breathing from smoky/dusty atmosphere and trapped there!
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Post by xtmw on May 12, 2023 7:58:08 GMT
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Post by Dstock7080 on May 12, 2023 10:51:35 GMT
that was linked in the first post
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class411
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Post by class411 on May 12, 2023 12:36:21 GMT
xtmw's version is a later article, but the lazy BBC have just used the same photo!
So at first sight it looks as if you've already read it.
It caught me out at first.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on May 23, 2023 9:39:48 GMT
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on May 23, 2023 9:40:00 GMT
As RAIB are now investigating this incident, this thread will be locked pending the release of their report.
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Post by roman80 on May 8, 2024 19:07:44 GMT
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on May 8, 2024 20:27:32 GMT
Admins may wish to move this post to the correct thread. Done, and unlocked.
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Post by jimbo on May 9, 2024 8:42:10 GMT
An excellent summary of the problems with dealing with an incident in real life. Lots of details of procedures for those interested in how the railway is run. Loss of knowledge with periodic staff turnover is a risk. I recall long back that a train must be held in the adjoining island platform to protect those being detrained from a defective train at these stations. The report suggests that no such special requirement has been maintained.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on May 9, 2024 9:45:16 GMT
A southbound train was in the platform during most of this incident, but it is not stated whether it remained there due to any particular procedure or coincidence that the power was discharged before it could depart. One thing that was only mentioned in passing, and surprisingly to me not discussed further, was the annual refresher training being cut from four days to just one day. Learnings from the Holland Park incident were one thing that was dropped, but what other knowledge is no longer being passed on to operational staff?
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Colin
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Post by Colin on May 9, 2024 10:40:32 GMT
One thing that was only mentioned in passing, and surprisingly to me not discussed further, was the annual refresher training being cut from four days to just one day. Annual refresher training is two days and has been for some time so the report is out of date on that. The Unions and company are looking at getting back to four days but that is still a work in progress at the moment.
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Post by starlight73 on May 9, 2024 10:56:29 GMT
What should a passenger do if they (hypothetically) are on the platform and see something like this happen on a train? Should they alert the driver, or use the emergency call buttons on the help points?
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Colin
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Post by Colin on May 9, 2024 11:31:15 GMT
Well it depends on where a person is on the platform in relation to the front of the train, or whether the train is about to depart the platform (or indeed has already done so).
It's common sense I would have thought. If a person has the ability to speak directly with the driver at their cab door, by all means do so. If not, use the nearest the emergency help point.
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Post by spsmiler on May 9, 2024 13:34:59 GMT
I recall long back that a train must be held in the adjoining island platform to protect those being detrained from a defective train at these stations. I am curious to know why a train is needed at the other platform at island platforms. Also, and to be candid, I would expect that whether an actual fire or just heavy smoke most passengers will just want to be off the train and actually make a fuss (even take physical action that makes self-evacuation possible, even if it damages the train) were they to be held on a train during this type of emergency incident simply because there is no train at the other platform face.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on May 9, 2024 13:50:15 GMT
I am curious to know why a train is needed at the other platform at island platforms. Because the platform itself is quite narrow - if you're gonna dump a whole train load of passengers onto it there is a risk of someone accidentally being knocked/pushed onto the exposed side of the platform. Also, and to be candid, I would expect that whether an actual fire or just heavy smoke most passengers will just want to be off the train and actually make a fuss (even take physical action that makes self-evacuation possible, even if it damages the train) were they to be held on a train during this type of emergency incident simply because there is no train at the other platform face. I don't believe anybody has suggested that passengers should be deliberately held on a train during an emergency situation. It's obviously less desirable to fully evacuate a train at such a station without all the usual safety protections in place first, but the nature of the emergency should take priority. On this occasion it was pure luck that a train was present at the opposite side of the platform but if it was wasn't, it shouldn't have prevented the evacuation as the emergency nature of the event was the priority.
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