Chris M
Global Moderator
Forum Quizmaster
Always happy to receive quiz ideas and pictures by email or PM
Posts: 19,758
|
Post by Chris M on Nov 8, 2022 13:50:58 GMT
Through running of the Elizabeth line has begun:
Paddington loses the lower left, step-free-to-platform blob. The label moves from below the Elizabeth line (lower right) blob to above it and it gains a red dagger (services at these stations are subject to variations) to complement the blue one regarding step-free access to the Bakerloo line
The Elizabeth line west of Stratford now turns southwest to cross the central line and join the Abbey Wood branch at the existing bend east of Whitechapel. To accommodate this, the kink in the Central line for Mile End moves east and Bethnal Green's label changes from one line to two.
At Liverpool Street, the label gains a red dagger and moves from below the LU blob to right of the LO blob. This makes it even less clear which blobs relate to Liverpool Street and which to Moorgate.
There is no indication at either Paddington or Liverpool street that some trains will continue to run into the high level stations.
Bank-Monument reduces from four blobs to three - the DLR is extended west to meet the Northern line at a step-free blob. To keep the straight line, the blob for Monument moves west and that for the central line moves southwest. The Waterloo and City line now shares the Central line blob (no step-free access) rather than the Northern line one's, necessitating the vertical portion of that line move west slightly. The label moves south slightly gains a dagger to note step-free access to Northern line trains is coming in late December 2022. This actually makes more space for the Liverpool Street label, making the decision to move the latter even more odd.
The "(Olympia)" part of Kensington Olympia's label is reduced in size and the NR double arrow moves from the third line to the start of the second.
The dangleway stations gain their sponsored names with "IFS Cloud" preceding Royal Docks and Greenwich Peninsula. The name also changes in the key from "London Cable Car" to "IFS Cloud Cable Car"
Deptford station moves west to be a bit more central between the East London line and DLR.
Nunhead moves from a spacious location west of Elverson Road to a tight spot west of Brockley/New Cross Gate, meaning the label for the latter has to change from the words on one line with the NR double arrow beneath to one word per line with the symbol above.
On the west of the map, the Transport for London (date) watermark moves slightly southwest. It no longer starts beneath the label for Maidenhead but in the gap between the symbol and M, and rathe than the n and s of "Transport" just missing Taplow's label they now run underneath it. The Oyster not valid note moves southwest by the same distance to accommodate. The watermark on the east side of the map also moves east very slightly, I'm guessing this is so the Romford-Upminster branch of the Overground passes neatly between the second and third digits of 2022 while the Goblin passes between "for" and "London" still.
The changes at Bank mean we wont be getting another new tube map this year, and indeed I can't think what the next trigger for change will be.
|
|
|
|
Post by xplaistow on Nov 8, 2022 15:11:46 GMT
At Liverpool Street, the label gains a red dagger and moves from below the LU blob to right of the LO blob. This makes it even less clear which blobs relate to Liverpool Street and which to Moorgate. I do wonder if they should make a distinction in the symbols for interchange within a station and internal interchange (as opposed to an OSI) between stations. Perhaps it could be a single solid black line instead of 2 black lines with white between. It would help to distinguish between Liverpool Street & Moorgate as well as Bank & Monument. Two less important uses are Hackney Downs & Central and Thameslink at Kings Cross being under the separate name of St Pancras International. |
|
|
|
Post by t697 on Nov 8, 2022 18:50:34 GMT
The anomalous step-free blobs at Amersham and Harrow that I've mentioned previously are unchanged.
|
|
|
|
Post by Chris L on Nov 8, 2022 19:04:10 GMT
The map is terrible.
Trying (and failing) to convey far too much information.
|
|
|
|
Post by jimbo on Nov 8, 2022 19:31:06 GMT
Checking out the latest map online, I noticed that there are two versions on the TfL site! The dangleway label was the clue. See here compared to this one!
Oh! I see now! (Cringes in embarassment) Tube & rail vs. tube only (sort of). |
|
Tom
Administrator
Signalfel?
Posts: 4,196 
|
Post by Tom on Nov 8, 2022 20:53:32 GMT
The map is terrible. Trying (and failing) to convey far too much information. Very similar to my own thoughts. I don't understand why they still call it the 'Tube Map' when it's now a TfL Rail Services Map. The best thing that could be done is they either embrace the new detail but re-draw it to suit a Three Panel A4 leaflet and re-name it to something more appropriate, or stick with the Tube Map name and strip it of every detail that isn't an Underground line or the River Thames. |
|
|
|
Post by Dstock7080 on Nov 8, 2022 22:27:48 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by spsmiler on Nov 8, 2022 22:54:10 GMT
I would prefer a different solution.
Retire this 'tube' map and replace with a 'London's Railways' map.
This will show everything*, even Tramlink, (and perhaps light railways such as at Ruislip Lido and similar elsewhere in London) plus the Heathrow Express.
*Except airport 'transit' shuttles
|
|
|
|
Post by d7666 on Nov 8, 2022 23:08:46 GMT
I would prefer a different solution. Retire this 'tube' map and replace with a 'London's Railways' map. Different solution to this ? tfl.gov.uk/maps/track/national-railHow different - disregarding facetious inclusions like ruislip lido. |
|
|
|
Post by d7666 on Nov 8, 2022 23:16:12 GMT
The map is terrible. Trying (and failing) to convey far too much information. So be constructive and tell us what information you would remove ? And then how would you otherwise deliver the information you have removed in a way that it can be linked up again ? How do you indicate zones on a tube map without having the zones and lines on the same map ? How do you indicate the assorted levels of access at stations and interchanges without markings at the stations on lines on the same map AND indicate to mobility access restricted persons what zone they are in ? etc. The only piece of information on map that contributes nothing is the Thames river - and we've been down the road of removing that once before. |
|
|
|
Post by Chris L on Nov 9, 2022 3:03:48 GMT
So be constructive and tell us what information you would remove ? Back to a proper Tube map where interchanges are simple. Paddington is a total disaster. Why try to show Russell Square as a fake interchange etc? Mod edit [Antharro]: Quote partially removed. Please be selective about the part of a post you wish to quote rather than the whole post verbatim, particularly if you are replying to the previous post in the thread. |
|
|
|
Post by brigham on Nov 9, 2022 8:34:03 GMT
Can't see the Russell square 'interchange'.
I have to agree about Paddington, though.
|
|
|
|
Post by xplaistow on Nov 9, 2022 14:57:48 GMT
I've probably said this before but my solution for the overly congested map would be to make the current pocket size map focus only on Zones 1 & 2 and have a separate A4 leaflet size map for all TfL services.
|
|
|
|
Post by trt on Nov 9, 2022 15:53:59 GMT
Euston's a pigging mess!
|
|
|
|
Post by rapidtransitman on Nov 9, 2022 16:21:56 GMT
Can't see the Russell square 'interchange'. Its connexion is shewn on the last of the Tube Map images posted above, which is different from the previous ones posted. |
|
|
|
Post by d7666 on Nov 9, 2022 18:07:43 GMT
Back to a proper Tube map where interchanges are simple. Paddington is a total disaster. Why try to show Russell Square as a fake interchange etc? In other words, you are removing information without offering a replacement. You may know your way around the tube - people who do know, do not need a map. The map is for people who do not know their way around, hence need the info. Define "proper tube map". Mod edit [Antharro]: Modified the quote. |
|
|
|
Post by Chris L on Nov 9, 2022 18:36:11 GMT
In other words, you are removing information without offering a replacement. Too many things have been added to the map that are unnecessary for the majority of the people picking up the map. They don't need replacement because they should have their own publicity material. As an example, Thames Clippers do their own material and give the nearest stations for the piers. The tail is now wagging the dog. People who don't their way around on the Tube want an easy to understand map not something that looks like a spider has crawled across the page.. Are you content with Euston Square being joined to Euston? I hope not or have you got time to stand on the station and explain to people that unlike real interchanges there is no physical connection? Unlike you I was responsible for getting the Tube map produced in the 1980s and we researched what people expected of the map. They wanted a clear map that was legible. The latest map is not. Mod edit [Antharro]: Quote partially removed. Please be selective about the part of a post you wish to quote rather than the whole post verbatim, particularly if you are replying to the previous post in the thread. |
|
|
|
Post by d7666 on Nov 9, 2022 18:44:42 GMT
I'm sorry but refering to 1980s is the old "but we always did it that way" approach.
1980 you did not have fare zones in the vital way they are used now nor did you have mobility access requirements. Nor as many lines and hence interchanges (Jubilee, Thameslink, Elizabeth, LO, trams, Docklands)
Own publicity material ? So how are you going to display interchanges + restricted mobilty access + fares zones + station index grid + differentiate the different lines in all this "own publicity" material ? Five dfferent maps ?
Thames clippers is actually a very very minor point and hardly impact on the complexity of the map as a whole.
Euston | Euston square is clearly marked and keyed that it is a walk within 10 mins. You'd delete the West Hampstead and Elephant & Castle walks, to take two at random, as well then ? You honestly think people are going to pick up an old style tube map then another map to see if there is walk to nearby oher station even if they thought about it ? The map is not attempting to give directions - which is what you really mean - between nearby stations - only the possibility.
You are not offering any positive suggestions only negativity.
|
|
|
|
Post by Chris L on Nov 9, 2022 18:59:05 GMT
You are not offering any positive suggestions only negativity. There are maps for mobility access. The 80s maps had fare zones. Adding the piers makes a lot of difference in areas where the space is tight. There is a London's Railways map. Glad you're happy with the map as it is. The use of notes isn't very good if you don't understand English. Who researched what is on it? The answer is nobody. Mod edit [Antharro]: Quote partially removed. Please be selective about the part of a post you wish to quote rather than the whole post verbatim, particularly if you are replying to the previous post in the thread. |
|
|
|
Post by d7666 on Nov 9, 2022 19:03:58 GMT
Glad you're happy with the map as it is. The use of notes isn't very good if you don't understand English. That is such a ridiculous answer about English. The whole map is useless if your native language uses cyrliic text or oriental symbaols or heiroglyhics. Such specious responses tell me a lot. |
|
|
|
Post by Chris L on Nov 9, 2022 19:17:02 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by antharro on Nov 10, 2022 4:25:02 GMT
I've cleaned up this thread a bit. Folks, I've asked before - please be selective about the part of a post you wish to quote rather than the whole post verbatim, particularly if you are replying to the previous post in the thread. There is very rarely a good reason to quote an entire post in its entirety.
|
|
|
|
Post by brigham on Nov 10, 2022 8:46:34 GMT
In other words, you are removing information without offering a replacement. Too many things have been added to the map that are unnecessary for the majority of the people picking up the map. And that sums it up in a nutshell. I've been a visitor to Central London for years, right from being a kid, and I've always been able to pick up a pocket-sized map which shows me how to go from where I am, to where I want to go, without staggering backwards in disbelief. The Tubes, the Metropolitan and District, and their sub-divisions. That's it. |
|
Chris M
Global Moderator
Forum Quizmaster
Always happy to receive quiz ideas and pictures by email or PM
Posts: 19,758
|
Post by Chris M on Nov 10, 2022 10:55:32 GMT
The issue I have with the current map is accessibility. Not because that info shouldn't be available or isn't important, but because the current presentation is simultaneously too complex and not complex enough to be useful to many people.
Assuming I need step-free access the present map tells me I can easily get from Southwark to Bank with a simple interchange at London Bridge. Except I can't, because the step-free interchange at London Bridge requires exiting the station, walking several hundred metres at street level (without signage) before re-entering the same station. The same map tells me that Oxford Circus and Baker Street are completely off-limits to me, but in reality there are plenty of interchanges that I can use them for.
The map shows no indication of walking distances. For example using the step-free route to interchange between the Victoria and Northern lines at King's Cross requires a choice of a very long walk that includes passing through two gatelines (with no indication you wont be charged twice) or a short staircase. For some people the latter is much easier, especially off-peak when there is plenty of space to take the stairs slowly.
It also makes no attempt to cater to those who can manage one or two small steps but not a flight of stairs, or those who are fine on escalators but not fixed stairs. The separate avoiding stairs map does provide this information, along with the vertical and horizontal gap between the train and the station. And herein lies the answer - stop trying to make a one-size-fits-all map and instead produce multiple maps tailored to different needs and promote and distribute them equally.
|
|
|
|
Post by johnlinford on Nov 10, 2022 13:13:52 GMT
I think particularly in the modern era, maps will become increasingly irrelevant - already the majority of under 40s simply use apps like Citymapper and just follow instructions, and that will include tourists who then get directions in their language.
Tailored maps is likely the way to go - Beck’s original never contained the outer extremities of the tube/SSR network, for example. The zone system, distorted as it is for financial rather than geographic reasons (zone 1/2 go geographically much further north and west than they do south and east), further complicates the map and can probably be shown in different ways too.
Hiding routes that are available because they aren’t a certain mode also seems counterproductive, especially (but not limited to) around zones 1&2 where there are multiple options but some areas heavily rely on or are given much easier journeys via eg Thameslink or other rail networks especially in South London (how do I as a tourist get to Wimbledon or Greenwich most efficiently?). Obviously TfL wants to nudge you to routes that maximise its revenue but that’s not especially helpful to get from A to B.
I would propose the following would cover most needs:
“Central London” - effective zone 1&2, maybe bits of 3 - effectively Acton to Stratford and Brixton to Camden - Wimbledon, Lewisham, Stratford and Wilsenden Junction defining roughly your four corners.
The existing London Connections map showing everything - not so useful perhaps but it’s then there should anyone want it.
A dedicated access requirements map - maybe split inner and outer or glossing over intermediate stations with no access in the outer zones and noting Chris’s important points above.
An “Outer London” map - the inverse of the above, central London minimised maybe showing where things connect through, rail terminuses and key interchanges denoted with a blob and key.
|
|
|
|
Post by trt on Nov 10, 2022 13:48:36 GMT
My eyesight isn't what it used to be, and I find the typography, although a very clear typeface, a little bit wee for my old peepers.
|
|
|
|
Post by spsmiler on Nov 10, 2022 14:28:38 GMT
“Central London” - effective zone 1&2, maybe bits of 3 - effectively Acton to Stratford and Brixton to Camden - Wimbledon, Lewisham, Stratford and Wilsenden Junction defining roughly your four corners. The existing London Connections map showing everything - not so useful perhaps but it’s then there should anyone want it. A dedicated access requirements map - maybe split inner and outer or glossing over intermediate stations with no access in the outer zones and noting Chris’s important points above. An “Outer London” map - the inverse of the above, central London minimised maybe showing where things connect through, rail terminuses and key interchanges denoted with a blob and key. I see much logic in what you say, although what might be useful is to include an arrow at the end of each service showing the usual terminus stations, eg: for the Northern line at Camden Town include Edgware, Golders Green, Mill Hill East and High Barnet. Why? It will help passengers when they catch a train to make sure that they are travelling in the correct direction. |
|
|
|
Post by johnlinford on Nov 10, 2022 15:30:14 GMT
Yes, absolutely - and especially airports or other useful onward transit links.
|
|
|
|
Post by taylor on Nov 10, 2022 19:06:39 GMT
I think the key is stations named after precise locations, even if that means two names (Monument / Bank). That way the information becomes location as opposed to map dependent. With the plethora of welcome augmentations, the relationship between names or apparent misnomers below the ground and what is actually on it, is inevitably becoming increasingly obscure. Excluding Paddington and Whitechapel Crossrail stations, Davies Street / Hannover Square, Dean Street / St. Giles, Farringdon / Long Lane and Moorfields / Broadgate with the respective subscript additions of Bond Street, Tottenham Court Road and Liverpool Street are arguably better designations for Liz-line locations. To a certain extent, this has been practiced at Monument / Bank since 1933 when the link was opened. In the absence of a landmark, the Paris Métro adopted the principle of using intersecting street names e.g. Réaumur / Sébastapol. That would be a suggestion for Oxford Street, e.g. Oxford / Bond. Some major interchanges Les Halles (ligne 4) – Châtelet-Les Halles (RER) – Châtelet (lignes 1, 7, 11, 14) adopt the multiple-name approach on the schematic but different combinations subsurface. But, have a look at Liverpool Street and try to figure out how a very occasional visitor to London from East Anglia can use the current map perambulate with confidence at Liverpool Street in a wheelchair. (Incidentally, calling the Crossrail station there Moorfields / Broadgate would also solve the problem of Liverpool Street Elizabeth Line terminators announcing that this train will not call at Whitechapel and Liverpool Street!). So, is it time to simplify the station names as well as the map? It can be a long-term project taking 30 to 40 years, and ,after-all, big signs like Great Central, Gillespie Road etc. still linger and several TfL Rail totems have yet to be replaced.
|
|
Tom
Administrator
Signalfel?
Posts: 4,196
|
Post by Tom on Nov 10, 2022 20:21:40 GMT
I think one thing that seems to be apparent is there's no clear idea of what the map is for any more, other than all things to all people. Of course this was always the way, but now there's a greater need for information about accessibility, what fare zone it's in, should it or shouldn't it show just an interchange symbol or that line's route as well, etc.
My view is that the people who most benefit from it are those unfamiliar with London, who will primarily be tourists or other visitors. Bearing in mind that many of them wouldn't go outside the central area, is there really a need to show DLR or Trams?
Likewise, now that visitors are encouraged to use Pay as you go, either on oyster or a contactless bank card, is there much need to show zones any longer? Passengers simply touch in or out and then if the cost of their journeys goes over that of a travelcard it's subject to capping.
I could see the need to have zones shown in the days of having to buy paper tickets, but not any more.
My personal view would be to be a purist and show only the underground lines and at a push, part of the Elizabeth line (which I would suggest only the sections between Heathrow and Stratford/Canary Wharf should be depicted). I certainly wouldn't show the Elizabeth line in it's entirety.
As TfL makes a big thing about each mode, it would be clearer to have a booklet of all the different modes with their respective maps, rather than compress everything onto one small map, which clearly isn't working any more.
|
|
