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Post by d7666 on Jul 20, 2022 11:07:06 GMT
Those with rose tinted glasses might have much travel experience on GB trains with opening wiondows - but not, certainly not, in the current tempertues. No-one has, exactly because the temperature records are being progressively beaten each heatwave. Applies to all modes. Come now, it is 46 years since we had temperatures anything like the recent ones, and I don't expect there will be anything similar for another 40-50 years. Weather proofing trains becauce of a few days of warmer than average temperatures, seems to me, akin to mandating permanant snow ploughs because we occasionally get 100mm of snow. OTOH it can be argued that ubiquitous air conditioning adds to the Heat Island Effect and thus the incease in outdoor temperatures. Not sure what you are saying and I think you have misinterpreted my post.
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Post by brigham on Jul 20, 2022 11:58:34 GMT
This is what happens when you want faster, smoother running, less maintenance, and no clickety-clack.
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Post by jamesb on Jul 20, 2022 16:42:25 GMT
Of course, it is common sense that if the rails are at all at risk, going slower is sensible (doing everything slower in the heat was generally the advice of the day). According to this BBC news article slower trains exert less force on the track, which reduces the chances of buckling happening. That would imply that the main safety aspect of the speed restriction was more about preventing buckling from happening in the first place? While the speed restriction would obviously reduce the impact of passing over a defect (or allow the train to stop in advance of it) if the risk of the track buckling, even with trains running at a reduced speed, was that high one would imagine that the trains would not have been allowed to run at all, given the unprecedented UK temperatures. Great respect to those with the engineering knowledge of how these things all work - such as being able to calculate a safe speed for the trains to traval at etc. Especially since they pass a few meters from the end of by back garden!
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Post by tut on Jul 21, 2022 0:52:34 GMT
Rail buckling can absolutely be severe and catastrophic: Now I don't know under what circumstances that video was filmed, but I once had the GSM-R (Network Rail radio system) go and the driver told me he'd stopped the train and could go no further. He said the track had buckled and he assured me he definitely wouldn't be able to continue. I saw the picture and it may not have been quite as bad as the track in the video, but it was not far off. The chap who went out and took that photograph described the track as f***ed, which it was, but the choice of adjective led to the selection of a different conversation for the purposes of comms review Incidentally I don't know if anyone's had the experience of sitting next to jointed track in a portacabin but the random bangs from the track will physically shake the portacabin and cause you to jump out of your skin!
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Post by brigham on Jul 21, 2022 8:04:05 GMT
I'm inclined to think it was filmed under circumstances of trick photography.
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class411
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Post by class411 on Jul 21, 2022 8:25:31 GMT
I see the usual bleating about how we can't handle temperatures of 40c but they can manage quite easily in India (akin to the snow and ice comparison with Scandinavian countries) has started in the meeja.
Why is it not obvious to these clowns that the reason we don't handle what are, for us, extremes, conditions is that the costs would outweighs the benefits?
Certainly we could spend a few billions installing and maintaining point heaters and other measures to ameliorate severely cold conditions, and the railway could run relatively smoothly for the couple of days each year that they would be needed.
Similarly, if the track engineers knew that rail temperature could rise to ~60c, they could have designed the track with sufficient expansion joints to cope. But the cost of installation, and, presumably, maintenance, would have looked like a complete waste of money back when the majority of track was being laid.
Going forward, it may be that the number or type of expansion joints are changed as rail is replaced, but it's always going to be a matter of weighing up the cost versus the benefit, particularly considering that extra money spent on such improvements will result in less investment elsewhere.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Jul 21, 2022 9:17:39 GMT
There is also the issue that in at least some cases, rail temperatures being an example, physics means you can only design your infrastructure to cope with a limited range of temperatures. You literally cannot have them work in both 40° heat in the summer and below freezing in the winter. Yes, you can spend a lot of time and money restressing rails twice a year but even that doesn't work with things like runways where the mix of tarmac (or bitumen I'm not certain) used in places like Saudi Arabia copes well with the extreme heat but would rapidly deteriorate in our typical winter temperatures.
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Post by zbang on Jul 21, 2022 15:28:33 GMT
I am not a permanent-way engineer, but.... Continuous welded raid (CWR) does not have expansion joints. When installed, it's often heated to a target "neutral" temperature (30-40 deg C) and stretched to a design length before being welded. That stretch takes care of expansion and the steel further stretches in colder temperatures. CWR is not adjusted or re-stressed twice a year, there's no need for it. CWR can function in a wide range of temp's (e.g. the US Southwest deserts- >40 to below -10). Yes, there can be "pull-aparts" when it gets cold enough, but that's not 0 deg, it's more like -20. And as observed, when it gets hot enough, it can expand too much and cause "sun kinks". Railways usually manage that to the extent of making sure it seldom happens, but not never because that would cost too much. Weight restrictions have to do with braking force. That force is transmitted via the wheels to the rails and then to the rail mountings. If the rail is not well fixed or is actually under compression from thermal expansion, the braking force can be enough to push the rail out of it's mountings. Higher speed = more braking force.
I expect that the actual style of rail has an effect here, with flat-bottom being more kink-resistant than bullhead. I also expect that the mounting makes a big difference and whether it's spikes into old wood sleepers or Pandrol clips on concrete.
There's a lot of info out there about rails, there's even an annual "rail/wheel interaction" conference in the US.
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Post by d7666 on Jul 21, 2022 16:48:09 GMT
I am not a permanent-way engineer, but.... Continuous welded raid (CWR) does not have expansion joints. When installed, it's often heated to a target "neutral" temperature (30-40 deg C) and stretched to a design length before being welded. That stretch takes care of expansion and the steel further stretches in colder temperatures. CWR is not adjusted or re-stressed twice a year, there's no need for it. CWR can function in a wide range of temp's (e.g. the US Southwest deserts- >40 to below -10). Yes, there can be "pull-aparts" when it gets cold enough, but that's not 0 deg, it's more like -20. And as observed, when it gets hot enough, it can expand too much and cause "sun kinks". Railways usually manage that to the extent of making sure it seldom happens, but not never because that would cost too much. Weight restrictions have to do with braking force. That force is transmitted via the wheels to the rails and then to the rail mountings. If the rail is not well fixed or is actually under compression from thermal expansion, the braking force can be enough to push the rail out of it's mountings. Higher speed = more braking force. I expect that the actual style of rail has an effect here, with flat-bottom being more kink-resistant than bullhead. I also expect that the mounting makes a big difference and whether it's spikes into old wood sleepers or Pandrol clips on concrete. There's a lot of info out there about rails, there's even an annual "rail/wheel interaction" conference in the US. main line GB CWR RNT rail neutral temperature is 27 deg C not the 30-40 deg C range (which is used in few other lands eg USA); Germany for example is even lower RNT = 26 deg C. if RNT is too high and the land’s climate range wide enough all you will do is reduce heat related rail distortion but increase cold related rail fractures having said that i don’t know what the LU RNT is but i doubt it is far from the main line value also, again GB main line, rails are tensioned during installation to this value that’s how RNT is achieved not by heating on site during renewals
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Post by zbang on Jul 21, 2022 17:27:27 GMT
With the underground temperatures high* and rising, and with much less range than outdoors, it's possible that the RNT is different for in and out of the tunnels. Anyway, calling it 27-30 seems like a safe bet.
*27(!) on the Bakerloo, and IIRC that's pretty normal now
During installation, whether the rail is heated or not largely would depend on local conditions.
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Post by d7666 on Jul 21, 2022 20:31:24 GMT
With the underground temperatures high* and rising, and with much less range than outdoors, it's possible that the RNT is different for in and out of the tunnels. Anyway, calling it 27-30 seems like a safe bet. *27(!) on the Bakerloo, and IIRC that's pretty normal now During installation, whether the rail is heated or not largely would depend on local conditions. Neither am I a PW engineer But I question that 1/4 mile CWR lengths are heated at installation anywhere in GB None of that equates with the recent rail renewals I seen recently on BedPan Observe my wording - I question I not state
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Post by notverydeep on Jul 22, 2022 7:27:07 GMT
It is certainly not 46 years since we had such high temperatures; it's 2 or 3 - and early August 1990 was just as searing. 1976 was long and hot, but that was quite exceptional. This awful heat has now to be regarded as ***endemic***. What can be engineered out practically and economically should be engineered out. As far as LU is concerned, William Bridges Adams (who invented the fishplate) could go down to his local station (Loughton) and recognise the p/way architecture instantly, after 166 years...couldn't he? Diamond Geezer has a good summary of London temperature records in his post on July 19th. This includes a table of all of the dates where 30 Celsius has been recorded at Hampstead Heath since 2010… Nine of the ten hottest days in the UK have been since 1990. The highest shade temperature recorded in 1976 was 35.9 Celsius and it does not make the top ten.
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class411
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Post by class411 on Jul 22, 2022 10:30:53 GMT
I am not a permanent-way engineer, but.... Continuous welded raid (CWR) does not have expansion joints. Also not a PW engineer, so below is just my understanding which could be wrong for weird and wonderful technical reasons of which I'm unaware.I presume you mean by that that it does not have expansion joints as frequently as the old fishplated rail. I have seen expansion joints on CW, and they look like this: If there was no allowance for expansion you could have pieces of metal many tens of miles long (in the UK - much greater in, e.g., Australia [where it can get quite warm]), and the expansion would be tremendous. It's also about the force exerted on the track by rolling stock running over it - either coasting or under power. It's important to remember that the force exerted on the track is proportional to the square of the velocity. So, in extremis, a speed restriction from 60mph to 15mph would lead to a reduction of 16x rather than 4x.
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Post by d7666 on Jul 22, 2022 11:39:12 GMT
I am not a permanent-way engineer, but.... Continuous welded raid (CWR) does not have expansion joints. Also not a PW engineer, so below is just my understanding which could be wrong for weird and wonderful technical reasons of which I'm unaware.I presume you mean by that that it does not have expansion joints as frequently as the old fishplated rail. If there was no allowance for expansion you could have pieces of metal many tens of miles long (in the UK - much greater in, e.g., Australia [where it can get quite warm]), and the expansion would be tremendous. Likewise I am not a pw engineer. So some of this may not be fully right. To my knowledge, that type of tapered expansion joint is used either at the end of CWR where the adjacent rail is not CWR, or where two adjacent sections of CWR with different characteristics meet - and those characterstics are not necessarily obvious, such as curvature. Not sure on this, but I don't think you will find that type of joint on contiguous CWR sections, if that is the right word. Re expansion, there is as allowance by pre-stressing the rail. That is what having an RNT does. At 27 deg C (GB main line) there is no stress in the rail, below 27 C rails are restrained in tension against contraction, above 27 C restrained in compression against expansion. RE method of tensioning to attain RNT, I can find no, or rather google does not find for me, evidence of method or equipment for GB rail heating to acheive RNT at installation.
I can however fined rail tensioning kit e.g. which, while an advert, does contain a video of use.
I am not stating GB do not heat rails, what I am saying is I have not in the past nor now found any evidence of this nor equipment to do it with; I would be interested if anybody can come up with some actual evidence. And all so far apples to GB main line rails, there seems to be zero on an detail for LU rails. EDITed punctuation etc
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class411
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Post by class411 on Jul 22, 2022 13:27:41 GMT
To my knowledge, that type of tapered expansion joint is used either at the end of CWR where the adjacent rail is not CWR, or where two adjacent sections of CWR with different characteristics meet - and those characterstics are not necessarily obvious such as curvature. Not sure on this, but I don't think you will find that type of joint on contiguous CWR sections, if thats the right word. That would explain why you don't see them that frequently. I don't spend my time on trains scrutinising the track, but even so, I certainly don't see them that often. We really need a PW engineer to explain how they handle expansion on CW track. From my calculations a kilometre of track (unconstrained) would expand by more than half a metre per kilometre for a 60c temperature difference. And, personally, I have no idea how you could constrain a metal rail that wants to expand that much - I'm pretty sure Pandrol clips wouldn't do it! But we're delving into the regions of some pretty advanced materials engineering here, so it seems to be beyond those of us who just take a casual interest.
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Post by d7666 on Jul 22, 2022 14:05:08 GMT
From my calculations a kilometre of track (unconstrained) would expand by more than half a metre per kilometre for a 60c temperature difference. And, personally, I have no idea how you could constrain a metal rail that wants to expand that much - I'm pretty sure Pandrol clips wouldn't do it! Indeed we need a pw person here. I am not going to challenge your figures, I have nothing better, but I am going to use them. The RNT is the point about which you consider expansion and contraction. At RNT, the rail is neither in tension or compression and is considered to be neither expanded or contracted. If you want to cover a 60 deg C range, and your RNT is at the mid point of that range, it is not 0.5 m per km expansion, but 0.25 m expansion for the 30 C of the range above RNT and 0.25 m of contraction for the 30 deg C below. It is still 0.5 m of movement true, but your rail retaining mechanism is different for the lower temp compared to the higher temp. I think a 60 deg C range would be too wide for GB; immeditately with only a 50 C range, your +/- changes drop to only 0.2 m per km. I do not think RNT is set at the mid point of the range. GB main line is 27 deg C, which suggests RNT is in the top 1/3 of the range, so the range of possible contraction is larger than that of expansion. I still don't know the details how they do this. I don't know any pw people in LU to mither at all.
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Post by zbang on Jul 22, 2022 14:34:01 GMT
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class411
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Post by class411 on Jul 22, 2022 14:38:15 GMT
So it seems I was wrong.
It is possible to constrain rods of metal with clips.
Live and learn!
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Post by bpk on Jul 23, 2022 3:01:15 GMT
Apparently the Central line was reaching around 10mph in the open sections! According to who? That’s nonsense. A blanket 35kph TSR was imposed over the open sections (21mph).
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castlebar
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Post by castlebar on Aug 10, 2022 15:30:18 GMT
I was on a Picc train on Saturday afternoon It was stuffed full of sweating tourists and they were not enjoying the journey Some were looking to see if the windows could open On the way back in the evening it was much worse. There were announcements from the cab about delays, but "no further information is available" If animals had been put in that situation, there could easily have been a prosecution to follow. It was awful. Eventually we got to Barons Court and caught a District. WHAT a difference!!! At Turnham Green, the next Picc went past which was a Heathrow service. I do wish "Health & Safety" could have video'd it as it went past. I don't think it could have carried any more. Whatever was responsible for the delays?? Whoever thought that windows that do not open, on a train that could get stuck in a tunnel in August was a good idea??
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Post by Dstock7080 on Aug 10, 2022 15:57:40 GMT
Whatever was responsible for the delays?? Fire on track just west of Barons Court requiring the Fire Brigade to investigate and extinguish. Later a track defect at Hyde Park Corner required the ERU to attend.
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Post by xtmw on Aug 10, 2022 19:09:48 GMT
Are TfL planning to introduce any more TSRs because of the amber weather warning which has been issued?
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Post by spsmiler on Aug 10, 2022 20:53:42 GMT
I have seen expansion joints on CW, and they look like this: I should mention that while I've never seen an expansion joint as pictured, they must exist, however On the very hot day that Barking Riverside opened I was on an eastbound C2C train at West Ham and happened to look over to the District / Ham & City tracks and spotted an expansion joint that looked very similar (if not exactly the same) to the expansion joint seen in the picture.
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Post by zbang on Aug 10, 2022 21:55:22 GMT
(sort of on topic, sort of not; please move as needed) At about 2120 today I was chatting with a District line driver at Earls Court who was waiting for his Edgware Rd train (delayed) and he mentioned all of the heat-related problems cropping up (a burning sleeper came up in the conversation, as did rail temperatures, temperamental points machines, and such). Mostly minor stuff but it builds up later in the day.
A few minutes in he said that I seem to know a lot about the system and I mentioned "If you want to get into the weeds about this, check out 'District Dave's Tube Forum' online". His next words were "He trained me." We both then took a pause to reflect on DD's passing. Then our train arrived. (Nice fellow, didn't catch his name.)
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Post by jamesb on Aug 13, 2022 8:30:03 GMT
What is the temperature threshold for heat related TSRs to be introduced? Today, according to BBC weather, it will be up to 35 degrees in London, but there doesn't seem (on the TFL website) any mention of potential disruption.
Yet 35 degrees doesn't seem to be that far away from the temperatures we saw in July, which caused widespread disruption and strong recommendations not to travel.
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Post by xtmw on Aug 13, 2022 8:46:32 GMT
I was on a (very hot) Central Line yesterday, and there weren't any TSRs, although the ride was much bumpier then usual...
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Post by Dstock7080 on Aug 13, 2022 9:01:05 GMT
What is the temperature threshold for heat related TSRs to be introduced? The Network Hot Weather Plan Summer 2022 only mentions the specific rail temperature of 27°C in relation to the Harrow-on-the-Hill movable angles, which shouldn’t be used over this temperature. All other areas are on a daily basis on request of the Duty Engineer.
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Post by jamesb on Aug 13, 2022 9:53:52 GMT
So the rail network is actually quite resilient, which is reassuring!
Doing some digging, according to Network Rail (https://www.networkrail.co.uk/campaigns/hot-weather-and-the-railway/) it would seem that speed restrictions are imposed during the hottest part of the day (at least on the National Rail network) when the forecast air temperature is over 36 degrees.
So it makes a bit more sense that things aren't disrupted today (when the predicted high is 35 degrees).
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