Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Mar 21, 2022 20:42:24 GMT
You also can't move drivers between lines to cover gaps, because the driver needs to be fully familiar with both the type of train they are driving and the route they are driving over. Certainly for route knowledge, familiarity only lasts a finite amount of time (six months?). If you haven't driven over a route in longer than that you have to learn it all over again.
You can train someone how to make a train go faster and slower in a few minutes, opening and closing the doors in about another minute. However what takes the time is teaching them where to make it go faster and slower, how fast or slow they need to go to meet the timetable while not going too fast (which risks derailing and/or crashing) or too slow (which risks getting gapped*). They also need to know where to start braking so they stop at the right place on the platform (I believe that the margin is ±50cm on the Jubilee line, I'm not sure about other lines). They also need to know where all the signals are so they can stop before it if it is at red. Drivers need to be able to do this in all weather conditions, in daylight, in complete darkness and with the sun in their eyes. They also need to be taught how to avoid people getting trapped when closing the doors and other platform-train interface (PTI) incidents.
In terms of trains it isn't just enough to know how to start, stop, accelerate, brake and open and close the doors. Drivers must also learn how to diagnose a fault, which ones they can fix and how to fix them, and (I presume) how to accurately report a problem that they cannot fix. A train can go wrong in more ways than a car can.
If that were not enough, drivers need to learn all sorts of procedures for when things are going right (to keep them going right) and procedures for when things are going wrong (to stop them going even worse and return to things going well as soon as possible). There are many, many different ways things can go wrong. Hopefully this will help clarify why training takes so long.
Additionally, not all procedures are the same on every line (for various reasons) further complicating line transfers.
*Trains collect power from the electrified rails via fixed "shoes", but there are of necessity (e.g. points) gaps in the power rails. "Gapped" means stopping with all the shoes over gaps, this means the train has not power and so cannot move.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Mar 21, 2022 20:52:19 GMT
They also need to know where to start braking so they stop at the right place on the platform (I believe that the margin is ±50cm on the Jubilee line, I'm not sure about other lines). The entire Northern line plus the parts of the Circle, District, Hammersmith & City and Metropolitan lines with CBTC have the same tolerance as they all use the same Thales Seltrac signalling system. Mind you, the tolerance isn’t much greater on the legacy signalled parts of the Circle, District, Hammersmith & City and Metropolitan lines. |
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Post by MoreToJack on Mar 21, 2022 20:56:08 GMT
I know it's already been mentioned, but I'll point out once again that these issues are affecting all grades, and not just drivers - whilst training is happening there's also a need to backfill those taking up driver positions, which in turn can slow down release if it might cause a stations area to become short staffed. Overtime can be worked by most non-driver grades, but a lot of staff goodwill has also been exhausted over the last two years and I know in my own area we're not working as much overtime as we used to (and yes, I have closed my cabin because I've not been prepared to stay past my book-off time).
It should be noted that the current cancellations/reduced service on the Victoria line is primarily down to service control shortages, not drivers. The same has (and could still) affect the Met (and other lines) also.
There was a period last year when there were four (4) individuals keeping Harrow cabin open for around a month, due to a combination of sickness, leave and other factors. It doesn't take much for a bug or virus to very quickly spread through a fairly cramped space with a small pool of staff.
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Post by andypurk on Mar 21, 2022 21:35:11 GMT
I have to say that the original poster has a point, in their first post. The status message of 'Good Service' may be political, but it doesn't help the passenger when their planned train is cancelled without notice, with information only on white boards at the station, and there is a long gap. If there are driver shortages to such an extent, then at least have planned cancellations (as is still happening on some of the National Rail system, including a few of the Chiltern services via Harrow) or a list of 'at risk' trains at the northern end of the Metropolitan line.
At least TfL have provided an API (access) to the live information on train running and timetables, so that independent apps/websites are available with next train information etc. However, these do sometimes suffer from issues when trains reverse or you are close to the originating station / driver changeover point. I've noticed the 'Good Service' on the mentioned Victoria line at times, when the extended intervals have led to crowded trains.
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Post by MoreToJack on Mar 21, 2022 21:45:24 GMT
I have to say that the original poster has a point, in their first post. The status message of 'Good Service' may be political, but it doesn't help the passenger when their planned train is cancelled without notice, with information only on white boards at the station, and there is a long gap. If there are driver shortages to such an extent, then at least have planned cancellations (as is still happening on some of the National Rail system, including a few of the Chiltern services via Harrow) or a list of 'at risk' trains at the northern end of the Metropolitan line. We're again back to the politics, though - there have been periods when the Met has been running with planned cancellations but this information hasn't been put out there. Indeed, many of the cancellations are known the day before (the aforementioned ONA lists) so it is in theory possible to put that information out there - and I know plenty of control staff, myself included, who would like to - but 'the powers that be' have decided that this isn't customer orientated. |
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metman
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Post by metman on Mar 22, 2022 10:33:45 GMT
As a Met user I can appreciate how frustrating it is with the cancellations but once you understand the reasons for it you learn to accept it and deal with it.
Personally I don’t mind the white boards detailing which trains have been cancelled. I come from a generation who remembers when trains were less frequent and most locals knew the timetable - I had it on my fridge!
I’d like to think many regular customers have a good idea when the trains run so if there are going to be gaps in the service they can make an informed decision and whether to take an alternative route like a bus (less of an option outside zone 6!).
Could TfL communicate better? Probably. But as it’s been said, there are company policies which put limits on communication. They won’t be the only company which does that I’m sure.
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Post by d7666 on Mar 22, 2022 14:23:25 GMT
It's not like there are supply-drivers out there able to drop everything at a moment's notice! Indeed. I'd love to be in the position of a supply driver, if it were intermittent demand, if such a thing were possible. LU does use, ummmm, whats the term, station ambassadors (?), from office etc staff with basic training to cover stations duties fro certain events. If LU did have fully trained supply drivers drawn from [like me] internal engineering staff, or other office staff, covid would fully drawn on them too. It might have made a difference early on, but only suceeded in a slight delay, we'd have been in the same boat after only a few days. And who covers the supply drivers role while they are supplying driving ? |One part of key maintenance in one SCC would go unattended if I were off supplying driving say more than one day per week. Likewise, from the engineering and other training I've had, I know technically how to use a signaller workstation (although not the operational and Rule Book stuff) and a good deal of line controller stuff (ditto applies); the same issues apply though; every day I am supplying signalling in that SCC, I am not supplying maintenance for that SCC. And I could still be knocked out by covid in the same way any contact or symptoms or isolation could - and did - take out whole shifts. Supply staff seems a nice idea but I'd doubt it could happen. (Unless we get taken over by P&O that is.) |
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Post by croxleyn on Mar 22, 2022 20:24:55 GMT
Although not heard for a while, BBC Three Counties travel at 06.55 has several times reported Met Line problems to Chesham or Amersham. I wonder where they get their information from?
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Mar 22, 2022 21:07:44 GMT
Although not heard for a while, BBC Three Counties travel at 06.55 has several times reported Met Line problems to Chesham or Amersham. I wonder where they get their information from? Although a different angle from the point originally being made, something that used frustrate me when I worked on stations was the "well nobody told me" phrase used by customers. It's as if LU are supposed ensure that every single potential traveller is personally informed of any disruption before its even occurred - in particular before they leave their front door. Sorry to shock the uninitiated but is up to you to seek out the information you require. LU doesn't have the manpower or resources to ensure you are kept fully informed via your own personalised one to one specific information portal. Actually, on reflection I suppose that does cover the initial discussion point. LU puts out generalised information via its service status update because that is the simplest/easiest way to inform the majority of travellers in one go. More specific information is usually put out locally via the whiteboards or station announcements at relevant local stations. |
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Mar 22, 2022 22:57:31 GMT
Sorry to shock the uninitiated but is up to you to seek out the information you require. LU doesn't have the manpower or resources to ensure you are kept fully informed via your own personalised one to one specific information portal. This sounds like something that could very easily be achieved these days with the internet/apps. Just set up personalised travel alerts for the routes/times/stations you want and get push notifications for some/all disruption affecting that. |
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Post by dm1 on Mar 23, 2022 0:28:54 GMT
Sorry to shock the uninitiated but is up to you to seek out the information you require. LU doesn't have the manpower or resources to ensure you are kept fully informed via your own personalised one to one specific information portal. I don't think anyone is asking for that, but saying there is a "Good Service" on a line when a part of it has so many trains cancelled that the headway is doubled (e.g. hourly instead of half-hourly) is the opposite of truthful and useful information. The fact is TfL actively hide information about which specific trains are cancelled. As soon as there is any disruption on the northern end of the met the published timetable becomes a work of fiction and it becomes quite difficult to find out when trains are actually running, even if one wanted to. It is not publically available to seek out. |
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Mar 23, 2022 8:41:15 GMT
Sorry to shock the uninitiated but is up to you to seek out the information you require. LU doesn't have the manpower or resources to ensure you are kept fully informed via your own personalised one to one specific information portal. This sounds like something that could very easily be achieved these days with the internet/apps. Just set up personalised travel alerts for the routes/times/stations you want and get push notifications for some/all disruption affecting that. Indeed. The trouble with writing or reading stuff on this forum is the reader doesn't always take what somebody's written in quite the right context..... To clarify, by setting up a personalised push notification you have bothered to seek out the information you require. The type or people I'm referring to are those that say "nobody told me" as if to mean that LU should have a dedicated member of staff following them around ready to tap them on the shoulder the moment something happens. They seem to think LU must actively pick them out as they pass through a gateline or pinpoint them on a platform and personally approach them to ensure they are informed. |
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Post by brigham on Mar 23, 2022 8:56:03 GMT
...I come from a generation who remembers when trains were less frequent and most locals knew the timetable... I come from a part of Britain where your cancelled trains outnumber our timetabled services. Can I be forgiven for suggesting that Londoners stop bleating, and wait for the next one...? |
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metman
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Post by metman on Mar 23, 2022 10:36:40 GMT
Well indeed. The frequency of services has improved hugely over the years so quite often waiting for the next one isn’t a bad option.
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Post by elsombernie on Mar 23, 2022 10:42:58 GMT
Well indeed. The frequency of services has improved hugely over the years so quite often waiting for the next one isn’t a bad option. And, quite often, waiting for the next one will get you to your destination quicker than using an alternative route. |
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Post by zbang on Mar 23, 2022 17:35:47 GMT
As far as I can tell, a great many people* everywhere don't connect the idea of urban rail transit with having a timetable at all. The behavior is a simple "go to the station, a train arrives sooner or later". Their only concern is how long they'll have to wait for the next one. People who think about it more may get to "If I leave the house at 7:55, I should be at the station just before the next one arrives." I suspect that this behavior holds when there are usually more than 6-7 trains/hour.
*in more urban areas; those in less-frequently-served areas often know "there's a train a little after 9:10 and the next isn't until around 9:45" but they don't know or care that those trains are at 9:13 and 9:43
(I know from my last visit that I never consulted a timetable, only either the google planner or just went to the station and waited. Granted that I don't think I went outside zone 4 except by main line trains.)
This really gets into human behavior, not train scheduling.
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Post by roverlei on Mar 23, 2022 21:26:39 GMT
This thread is proving my point: ultimately it's the customer who suffers. We can put as many lengthy explanations forward as to why it is like it is, but ultimately people just want to get a train to work. A train they've paid for. Despite COVID, we've made my workplace function.
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Post by roverlei on Mar 23, 2022 21:29:05 GMT
Although not heard for a while, BBC Three Counties travel at 06.55 has several times reported Met Line problems to Chesham or Amersham. I wonder where they get their information from? I'll bet someone is reading a whiteboard at Amersham station and reporting it. It's sure as hell not on the tfl website. |
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Post by roverlei on Mar 23, 2022 21:30:11 GMT
As a Met user I can appreciate how frustrating it is with the cancellations but once you understand the reasons for it you learn to accept it and deal with it. Personally I don’t mind the white boards detailing which trains have been cancelled. I come from a generation who remembers when trains were less frequent and most locals knew the timetable - I had it on my fridge! I’d like to think many regular customers have a good idea when the trains run so if there are going to be gaps in the service they can make an informed decision and whether to take an alternative route like a bus (less of an option outside zone 6!). Could TfL communicate better? Probably. But as it’s been said, there are company policies which put limits on communication. They won’t be the only company which does that I’m sure. Yeah, na. I've paid for the timetabled service. If you're going to cancel 20 trains, at least tell us on the website. |
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Post by Chris L on Mar 23, 2022 22:03:56 GMT
This thread is proving my point: ultimately it's the customer who suffers. We can put as many lengthy explanations forward as to why it is like it is, but ultimately people just want to get a train to work. A train they've paid for. Despite COVID, we've made my workplace function. As is the Met (and other public transport in London). I dare say your school has reached breaking point or had to send classes home. Why can't you understand that trains need drivers and controllers? |
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Post by MoreToJack on Mar 23, 2022 22:46:18 GMT
Okay, I'm going to end this thread here. There's been some useful posts made from both sides but we appear to be going around in circles a little bit now.
As a general reminder, this forum is one of the most informed LUL sources on the Internet, and very well regarded. There's plenty of staff who have a wealth of knowledge and this is shared freely in response to queries from all. These staff don't set policies or fares, but do keep the railway running as best they can with the tools they have.
On a personal note - and I hope my forum staff colleagues will briefly indulge me, notwithstanding the above - I'm all too well acquainted with 'making a workplace function...despite COVID'. I didn't have a lockdown and kept an empty Met line running, largely without thanks, for the best part of two years. Even once the country opened up again, I - and my colleagues - was cancelling social engagements, holidays and more out of a perceived duty to keep trains running precisely so customers didn't suffer. Out of this I've relapsed with my mental health and spent six months signed off work - in a location that was already short on staff before Covid happened. I'm also one of two (was three) Instructors at that location, and prior to last summer I was the only one - largely because most people just don't want to do the job because of the extra responsibility and risk it entails. 'Because Covid' isn't an excuse - it's the reality, and it's very disheartening to see those best efforts rubbished on a public forum by those who can't or won't appreciate the vast effort that goes into keeping things running.
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