roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
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Post by roythebus on Jan 18, 2022 0:43:32 GMT
Another in my quest for information of the workings of the Midland Railway coal depots at West Kensington and Kensington High Street. Both closed to traffic in the mid 1960s, dates vary according to different sources, but basically the unfitted goods trains were steam hauled from Cricklewood using LMS "Jinty" tank locos via the Dudden Hill branch to South Acton, then round the now lifted Gunnersbury Triangle to West Kensington, using the lifted double junction just west of the station, on the site of what is now Ashbury House, and onto the coal depot that is now a housing estate.
Other trains ran via the same route and on through Earls Court to platform4 at High Streett, then a double shuffle up the incline to the coal depot, the site now occupied by a hotel. From track plans I've seen there's no apparent run-round at High Street so I'm still baffled as to how the loco would run round its train to go back to Cricklewood. The answer may be in a pre-1965 District Line local instructions book or if anyone has a British Railways Midland section "Working Over" book for the London area, that may have the answer. The working time ables would be handy as well as these would show the paths available, usually early morning or after the morning peak for eastbound trains and early afternoon for the westbound empties.
Maybe any ex High Street signalmen from that era would remember?
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Post by selbiehouse on Jan 20, 2022 12:28:40 GMT
WTT No. 85 18/6/1962 shows Mon-Fri arrivals at West Kensington at 5.23am RR, 10.32am (suspended Tues and Thurs) and 11.31am RR. Return journeys are at 10.29am RR, 12.13pm RR, and 3.58pm (suspended Tues and Thurs). Arrivals at High Street 9.59am and 1.22pm RR. Return 2.23pm (Tues and Thurs only) and 3.23pm RR.
On Saturday arrive West Kensington at 5.36am RR and 10.32am (suspended), return 10.27am RR. There is no other return working shown. Arrival at High Street 9.36am, return 3.9pm. WTT No.89 7/9/1964 shows the West Kensington journeys in approximately the same timings but the High Street workings have ceased. There is no reference in the WTTs concerning the working of freight trains.
I recall once seeing a Jinty propelling its train from platform 4 at High Street up to the higher level. It must be remembered that in those days platform 4 was hidden from the other platforms by advertisement hordings. In 1964 I was on the westbound platform at Turnham Green when a train returning to Brent went through. On another occasion i was on a District Line train between Turnham Green and Gunnersbury and saw a plume of steam on the north side of the triangle heading east. I also once saw a Jinty shunting below in Hammersmith & Chiswick (Goods) from a District Line train. Were the Jinty engines fitted with trip cock apperatus for working over the LT lines?
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DWS
every second count's
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Post by DWS on Jan 20, 2022 13:49:08 GMT
The coal yard at High Street must have had a means of running round for the locomotive .
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roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
Posts: 1,255
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Post by roythebus on May 30, 2022 14:21:59 GMT
Not according to the track plans I've seen, using the NLS large-scale maps of the are which have pretty accurate track plans. Unless good old gravity and horses were used for certain shunting moves. I can't see a second loco being based there to shunt the yard and assist with the run-round, it simply wouldn't have made common sence despite railway modellers wanting to provide locos everywhere for every purpose!
Which is why I'm still trying to find local working instructions for this yard and the West Kensigton coal depot which also seemed to lack a run-round facility!
Cricklewood had a small number of Jintys trip-cock fitted for working over the DR. From what I've heard they were put in the "own" position but rarely cut in. the reason being the train does not have continuous brakes, so the application of the "emergency" steam brake on the loco would result in a very rough ride for the guard rather than a gentle application of the brake to buffer up the wagons. There was a picture published recently of an LMS 8F 2-8-0 shunting the yard at Hammersmith & Chiswick! 1965 or 66 I think. It seemed a bit of a big engine for a dozen or so wagons.
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Post by ertowerty1 on Jul 24, 2022 22:29:44 GMT
I would summise that the loco got to the front of the train for the return working in the following manner by means of a gravity shunt.
Check Harsigs track plan for the area and you will see a short spur off the depot tracks near platform 4.
On arriving at platform 4 the loco would propel the train and brake van towards this spur, the brake van would then have th brakes applied, uncoupled and then the train would draw back into the platform. The route would be set for the yard proper and the train would be propelled into the yard proper. This is the part that is open to correction, shunting would then take place by capstan or tractor or locomotive. Once the train had been made up for departure the loco would control the wagons descent towards platform 4, the loco bringing the train to a halt before the points to the spur road. Sufficient wagon brakes would be applied to hold the wagons on the descending gradient, and the engine would then fetch the brake van from the spur road and couple it to what would become the back of the train. The loco would push the rake clear of the spur road points, the brakes applied again to the wagons and brake van and the loco would uncouple and then proceed to berth in the spur road, once so clear, the guard, and a shunter or two would control the decent of the wagons into platform 4.
Once clear of the points and with sufficient track space for the engine availible the wagons would be bought to a halt, the engine would exit the spur and couple to the front of the train.
then all ready to return to Brent.
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roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
Posts: 1,255
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Post by roythebus on Aug 1, 2022 8:41:57 GMT
That is more or less what I assumed. none of the track plans I've seen show a run-round facility in the goods yard. If anyone has the District Line working instructions for the pre-1965 era they ought to show what the arrangements were for entry and exit from the coal yard. There's very few people around now who would remember what they were either!
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roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
Posts: 1,255
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Post by roythebus on Jan 7, 2023 19:28:47 GMT
Having thought about this a bit more and having just found the Harsig plans on here, I reckon that on arrival in platform 4 the loco would propel the train into the spur siding which according to Harsig approaches from the opposite end shown in the earlier NLS maps! so, in the spur, uncouple brake van, back clear of the spur points, and propel wagons up the incline and pull them back to the top level. It could be any number of means of propulsion, loco, gravity, hors, capstan, handraulic..
Wagons to be collected may have been assembled on the headshunt by the same means. the loco would then couple onto the south end of the wagons the propel them down the slop towards the outlet signal. Meanwhile, the guard could have let the brake van roll out of the spur to stop at the outlet signal, or maybe run into the platform if the signal was clear. the loco would propel the train onto the brake van then couple the brake van on, ready to depart back to Brent sidings.
I can't see a second loco being provided to shunt the yard when cheaper options were available.
Edited to add there was mention of a Jinty shunting the old Hammersmith & Chiswick goods yard. I've recently seen a picture of a Stanier 8F on a freight at Hammersmith & Chiswick Station. Over-powered I suppose, but a case of using whatever loco Cricklwood or Willesden had spare at the time!
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Post by ertowerty1 on Feb 12, 2023 17:10:59 GMT
Just a thought, would these coal trains have been published in the Traffic circulars of the day or in the "Special Track and Current Arrangements publications which were published weekly?
When I was stationed at Long Acre, we had bound volumes of the Traffic circulars going back to at least pre-WW2, I wonder what happened to them, LT museum, TfL archives?
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Tom
Administrator
Signalfel?
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Post by Tom on Feb 12, 2023 20:10:43 GMT
The LT Museum certainly had a full set of bound volumes when I last consulted them, some 20+ years ago. I believe the TfL Engineering library also held a copy.
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Post by d7666 on Feb 12, 2023 21:24:24 GMT
The LT Museum certainly had a full set of bound volumes when I last consulted them, some 20+ years ago. I believe the TfL Engineering library also held a copy. The engineering library when at Victoria had all sorts of interesting stuff like that; alas its replacement in Broadway is a lot dumbed down (and last time I was there the room seemed to be a mecca for extended lunch eating). I went there to look out a couple of learned society papers that I knew had been in Victoria. Not only was nothing of the sort in Broadway, there were no staff to ask, nor any clue where they might have gone. I wasn't looking for TC but when I realised much had gone, I did look around for old WTT and they weren't there. Unless someone had the wit to send all that stuff to Acton museum (in which case it may as well be inaccessible anyway) it might have all been skipped. |
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Tom
Administrator
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Post by Tom on Feb 12, 2023 21:37:30 GMT
Do you mean Stratford? It relocated from Broadway a while back now.
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Post by d7666 on Feb 12, 2023 22:18:35 GMT
Do you mean Stratford? It relocated from Broadway a while back now. Nope I did mean Broadway. It has been a while. I wasn't aware it had moved on again. TBH I'd not looked into it any more since the set up at Broadway was useless. |
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