Boris demands TfL agree to Driverless Trains part 2

I hadn't realised it was so widespread.

When I first saw this thread, I was led to believe that Johnson had taken leave of his senses.

Turns out, he's only wanting what other cities already have!

This is exactly it - it’s ideological.

If you or I were building LU today, we’d probably want to go with unmanned operation. The benefits in terms of cost and operating simplicity are very attractive - indeed we saw elements of this during the Covid lockdown special services when lines were able to recover from lengthy suspensions in the blink of an eye, the difficulty being this is only possible when you are only running a handful of trains.

In the real world, LU as it exists simply isn’t built for unmanned operation. The physical characteristics simply aren’t setup for it, and the only way to rectify that would be to essentially rebuild the whole system from scratch. The stations are a long way apart in many places, most of the system has no smoke control measures, and there is no dedicated emergency access in the tunnels. Even relatively recent stuff like DLR to Bank or the JLE has design issues - in particular the trackside walkways are too narrow to avoid a conflict between escaping passengers and arriving emergency services staff. I think I’m right in saying that there’s only *one* part of LU whose design adequately provides for this, and that’s the Northern Line to Battersea. Perhaps Heathrow Terminal 5 as well, I can’t remember. These factors essentially exclude unmanned operation, at least in the tunnel sections.

Now you have a human on the train, you’re back to the territory of duty schedules, the abolition of which is probably the single biggest prize of trying to eliminate the traditional train operator, simply because it makes operation more flexible. There’s also an argument to say that if you’re going to have a member of staff on the train, a cab is the optimum place for them to be located, even if their role might be more focussed on monitoring CCTV than observing the road ahead. Covid only reinforces this - look at the issues operators have had where there has not been a cab for staff to work from, we’ve seen all sorts of abominations like areas having to be cordoned off, or in some cases entire carriages being designated for staff use. Not having a place of safety for a member of staff is poor practice, and DLR only get away with it because “that’s how it is” on a system built as a bit of a toy railway, one of a number of features which probably wouldn’t be acceptable if one were designing the system from scratch today.

The following is a personal point not a party political one. The crusade for abolishing the traditional train operator flows from the ideology of one individual - Alexander Boris Johnson. He has form for having a personal grudge against train drivers, I remember coming across an article of his when he was simply lowly editor of the Spectator, slagging off the driver of the turbo at Ladbroke Grove for “ignoring three danger signals”. At the time I found this at best ignorant and poorly informed, and at worst crass and insensitive, when there has never been any suggestion the Ladbroke Grove driver “ignored” the warning aspects. As we all know, the subsequent investigations uncovered numerous deficiencies in both the infrastructure and the driver’s training, so Johnson got that one very wrong indeed.

As for where this will go, this same individual has presided over a period where well over 100,000 people have lost their lives. Notwithstanding whether things could have been done differently or not, I’m not sure any leader could or should expect to remain in power long-term after such an event. As a country we are going to have to move on from Covid, and the events of the past week have perhaps highlighted this. Fresh leadership is bound to be sought as part of the moving-on process. I can’t see this individual lasting in power too long, and with his demise I predict the fad for driverless trains will go the same way. We just have to hope not too much money and time gets wasted on it in the meantime, or we don’t get lumbered with something like a fleet of trains which are then unfit for purpose for 40 years thanks to one man’s pet ideology.

In the meantime, at the moment LU has a list of issues as long as your arm, and the distraction of pet projects is extremely unhelpful all round.

The current DLR trains order remain cabless as current DLR fleet despite problems through Covid. here They could be fitted with temp cab screen as new Picc trains will be.

In this thread, brigham wrote:
There are big differences between new systems around the World built for driverless trains and the Underground, particularly the deep level tunnels.

Safe walkways for evacuating passengers in dark tunnels do not exist except on extensions and Crossrail.

I think it would be a very good idea to take ministers and DfT seniors on a few tunnel walks and see what they think afterwards.

Posts merged from Covid implications thread which was drifting - Tom

not as a rebuff but an example you're looking for is Paris Metro Line 1.

(Last line removed as it's now out of context following post move - Tom)

So far four lines have been converted from driver operated to driverless

2010 Nuremburg U2.  Shared track over the central section with driverless U3 (opened 2008)

2011 Paris Metro 1.  Took four years to convert.  New trains (MP05) had same door configuration as old trains (MP89), trains were driver operated while Platform Edge Doors were installed  Prior to conversion RATP negotiated a deal with CGT drivers union, all drivers were displaced to other lines after conversion was complete (with hefty bonuses all round)

2017 Singapore North South
2018 Singapore East West.  Both lines already had Platform Edge Doors

Currently mid-conversion

2023 Paris Metro 4.  Five year conversion, I imagine they're following the same pattern as M1

Possible future conversion

Glasgow Subway,  Will have PEDs.  At the moment the new trains are undergoing trial running but there have been delays installing the new signal system into the old Victorian tunnels

All other driverless railways were built driverless and all other driver operated railways are still driver operated

TfL and the government can consdier driverless operation on the Tube as much as it wants, it would be expensive, take decades and would need the unions co-operation.  A red herring

You're right there are no sidewalks, but they also have only a third rail and very few points and crossings, resulting in far fewer trip hazards.

Yes, it would cost billions* (literally) and, even if TFL ever have that much budget available, will there not always be something more important on which to spend it?

*Presumably, the capability of the system will get nearer to that required for fully automatic operation as trains and signalling are upgraded, but it's always going to be a massive money sink.

This is a reason to pick the Waterloo & City line as a demo line in London. Boris is still pushing for driverless trains, even in the latest funding agreement. If he wants a line converted to show that London can do what Paris can do, this is the one. We know it's not a typical line, with only five trains and four platforms, but most people will have never used it. It need not involve TfL if the line is taken from them, just as it was given to them some time back. A group could be contracted to close and convert the line with new trains and signals, and then operate it for say 25 years.

Surely they would talk about this first.

Is the notion the engineer-side confidence in technical ability to retrofit this specific line, or the need for the political attack?

I think there was something optional considered for the last refurbishment, but not done because it would not be a good use of an extended shutdown.

Surely all they need is a short document that says "to upgrade to 'driverless' will cost X, cause Y disruption and save Z in anual running costs for reasons a, b and c. It is therefore uneconomical. If the DfT would like to proceed, please sign a blank cheque."

Which, in terms of timescale, is extremely open ended.

Control Room staff, train maintainers, track workers, signal technicians, power supply technicians, station staff and DLR style on-board staff.  Most of which will be RMT, all you do by removing the drivers is remove ASLEF from the equation

The DLR PSAs are on about £10k less than Train Operators