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Post by superteacher on Aug 7, 2021 7:32:05 GMT
I think we’ve done the equality / accessibility argument now. Back to specifics about the District / Circle line closure. Thanks all.
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DWS
every second count's
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Post by DWS on Aug 7, 2021 9:41:11 GMT
Back to Engineering work at Embankment, has any one have information on how is progressing, , has the old steel decking under the District & Circle line been cut out yet.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Aug 7, 2021 10:21:22 GMT
Back to Engineering work at Embankment, has any one have information on how is progressing, , has the old steel decking under the District & Circle line been cut out yet. - track and wooden sleepers lifted - preparatory work was done before the blockade, including these troughs for the concrete to settle - eastbound flat-bottomed rail awaiting concrete pour, westbound track still on wooden long timers    |
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Aug 7, 2021 11:29:35 GMT
I’m just wondering if they’ve kept the tags and will put them back in the right places…..
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Post by d7666 on Aug 7, 2021 20:52:28 GMT
I've only just caught up with this thread. I see part of this has been gone over. 4LM CIS is sort of in my remit. For this Embankment blockade, Hammersmith to Upminster stations VEIDs to display Barking before Aldgate East and then after there Upminster is a requirement from LU customer services, exactly for one of the reasons stated upthread, to match the station's fixed line diagram map where the normal, H&C, service goes only to Barking. I actually queried this myself on the first day of the special service as it came in to me at HSCC as a fault. Until then I was unaware of the requirement. It is correct answer, and not a fault nor a system shortcoming. CIS is easily capable of doing it, since all the affected H&C stations are in CTBC area, hence also under SWIM at HSCC - OK a sentence full of acronyms, for SWIM read customer information system server, that migrates CIS in stages in parallel with each CBTC SMA; translating what the abbreviations literally mean won't help anyone understand it any better.
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Post by Chris L on Aug 8, 2021 10:09:30 GMT
I've only just caught up with this thread. I see part of this has been gone over. 4LM CIS is sort of in my remit. For this Embankment blockade, Hammersmith to Upminster stations VEIDs to display Barking before Aldgate East and then after there Upminster is a requirement from LU customer services, exactly for one of the reasons stated upthread, to match the station's fixed line diagram map where the normal, H&C, service goes only to Barking. I actually queried this myself on the first day of the special service as it came in to me at HSCC as a fault. Until then I was unaware of the requirement. It is correct answer, and not a fault nor a system shortcoming. CIS is easily capable of doing it, since all the affected H&C stations are in CTBC area, hence also under SWIM at HSCC - OK a sentence full of acronyms, for SWIM read customer information system server, that migrates CIS in stages in parallel with each CBTC SMA; translating what the abbreviations literally mean won't help anyone understand it any better. I travelled from Paddington to Farringdon on Friday afternoon. When I reached the platform I was very surprised to see the platform describers showing three trains going to Upminster. This caused a lot of confusion for people looking at the platform diagrams. When originally installed these describers frequently showed check front of train. When the train pulled in it showed Barking. Perhaps Check front of train would have been more sensible on the platform describers. It seems LU Customer Services need to think things through a bit more carefully. |
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Post by d7666 on Aug 8, 2021 12:19:02 GMT
I've only just caught up with this thread. I see part of this has been gone over. 4LM CIS is sort of in my remit. For this Embankment blockade, Hammersmith to Upminster stations VEIDs to display Barking before Aldgate East and then after there Upminster is a requirement from LU customer services, exactly for one of the reasons stated upthread, to match the station's fixed line diagram map where the normal, H&C, service goes only to Barking. I actually queried this myself on the first day of the special service as it came in to me at HSCC as a fault. Until then I was unaware of the requirement. It is correct answer, and not a fault nor a system shortcoming. CIS is easily capable of doing it, since all the affected H&C stations are in CTBC area, hence also under SWIM at HSCC - OK a sentence full of acronyms, for SWIM read customer information system server, that migrates CIS in stages in parallel with each CBTC SMA; translating what the abbreviations literally mean won't help anyone understand it any better. I travelled from Paddington to Farringdon on Friday afternoon. When I reached the platform I was very surprised to see the platform describers showing three trains going to Upminster. This caused a lot of confusion for people looking at the platform diagrams. When originally installed these describers frequently showed check front of train. When the train pulled in it showed Barking. Perhaps Check front of train would have been more sensible on the platform describers. It seems LU Customer Services need to think things through a bit more carefully. I suggest customer services probably did think the requirements out but also suspect part of the reason may be these requirements had not been cascaded down the food chain (e.g. myself not knowing) ? The assorted anomalies observed possibly arise from over riding the requirements into things that may not necessarily work. |
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Post by youngmale1967 on Aug 8, 2021 18:35:43 GMT
Easy fix when they update the maps just add the H&C dotted line Barking to Upminster and add legend special service.
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Post by t697 on Aug 8, 2021 19:29:55 GMT
Easy fix when they update the maps just add the H&C dotted line Barking to Upminster and add legend special service. It would also cover for the few H&C trains that enter service and finish service from Upminster depot in the normal timetables. The train CIS could have the necessary changes relatively easily and others in the thread have pointed out that station indicators can already show Upminster in the relevant parts of the route. |
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Post by Chris L on Aug 8, 2021 20:07:51 GMT
Easy fix when they update the maps just add the H&C dotted line Barking to Upminster and add legend special service. A very expensive fix for what should be a temporary requirement. Each new platform diagram costs around £1,000. Changing the diagrams inside the trains takes hours of night work to complete which is not cheap plus the print cost. Once the 4LM project is complete it should not be needed. |
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Post by jimbo on Aug 8, 2021 20:20:37 GMT
Easy fix when they update the maps just add the H&C dotted line Barking to Upminster and add legend special service. By 'the maps' I suppose you mean the system diagram, the line diagrams in each car, the enamel line diagrams around stations, ... etc.? |
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gantshill
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Post by gantshill on Aug 8, 2021 20:31:06 GMT
Easy fix when they update the maps just add the H&C dotted line Barking to Upminster and add legend special service. I seem to recall that one idea was to have a single line diagram for the Circle, District and H&C lines in the S7s. Had that happened, then some of the occasional services such as Upminster to King's Cross and beyond might be easier to understand by the general traveller. |
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Post by steeevooo on Aug 9, 2021 8:18:52 GMT
A slightly strange scenario on Saturday - it seems that the District was running Upminster to Whitechapel shuttles, and the H&C running Hammersmith to Whitechapel. With the track layout around the Whitechapel area, this resulted in all Eastbound departures (i.e. District Line) departing from the Westbound platform, and all Westbound departures (i.e. H&C Line) departing from the Eastbound!
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DWS
every second count's
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Post by DWS on Aug 9, 2021 8:31:37 GMT
A slightly strange scenario on Saturday - it seems that the District was running Upminster to Whitechapel shuttles, and the H&C running Hammersmith to Whitechapel. With the track layout around the Whitechapel area, this resulted in all Eastbound departures (i.e. District Line) departing from the Westbound platform, and all Westbound departures (i.e. H&C Line) departing from the Eastbound! This was because of the availability of train staff on that day. District crews can work Upminster to Whitechaple, reducing any delay at Barking awaiting H & C line train operators. Hammersmith and Circle line train operators worked to and from Whitechaple thus ensuring reducing delays on this service. |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Aug 9, 2021 8:35:07 GMT
The same split-service was worked on 31 July/1 August and yesterday 8 August.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Aug 9, 2021 9:56:33 GMT
Easy fix when they update the maps just add the H&C dotted line Barking to Upminster and add legend special service. A very expensive fix for what should be a temporary requirement. Each new platform diagram costs around £1,000. Changing the diagrams inside the trains takes hours of night work to complete which is not cheap plus the print cost. Once the 4LM project is complete it should not be needed. Then perhaps temporary paper/vinyl maps could be produced when special services are in operation. This was done at a few stations when the t-cup circle line was being trialled. |
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Post by dm1 on Aug 9, 2021 18:38:35 GMT
The better solution would probably have been designing much more flexibility into the customer infromation systems on the trains from the start. Such unusual service patterns during engineering works are nothing new and the system could have been designed to correctly display any service pattern that can physically be run on the SSR network. Displaying "Hammersmith & City line to Upminster via Barking", or even having the displayed line/destination change automatically at the relevant location once the destination and route has been entered into the system would have prevented these issues entirely. I am aware that the computer systems on the S-stock are somewhat archaic, but systems that can deal with situations like this have been around for decades now - not least on numerous bus information systems on the continent. Perhaps d7666 can elaborate whether such flexibility will arrive with 4LM. It would certainly help. |
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Post by Chris L on Aug 9, 2021 21:15:55 GMT
The better solution would probably have been designing much more flexibility into the customer infromation systems on the trains from the start. Such unusual service patterns during engineering works are nothing new and the system could have been designed to correctly display any service pattern that can physically be run on the SSR network. Displaying "Hammersmith & City line to Upminster via Barking", or even having the displayed line/destination change automatically at the relevant location once the destination and route has been entered into the system would have prevented these issues entirely. I am aware that the computer systems on the S-stock are somewhat archaic, but systems that can deal with situations like this have been around for decades now - not least on numerous bus information systems on the continent. Perhaps d7666 can elaborate whether such flexibility will arrive with 4LM. It would certainly help. It's just a shame that S stock needed to be ordered while dot matrix screens were the only option. A short while afterwards and LED screens became available with a lot more flexibility. |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Aug 13, 2021 7:55:45 GMT
Services resumed this morning however it seems only the eastbound track received the full concrete slab and flat-bottomed rail treatment at Embankment.
Wondering if a second round of closure will now be needed?
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Aug 13, 2021 9:33:43 GMT
I understand the delivery team ran into significant difficulty and had to descope. It's inevitable that a second closure will be required.
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Post by philthetube on Aug 13, 2021 11:48:31 GMT
The better solution would probably have been designing much more flexibility into the customer infromation systems on the trains from the start. Such unusual service patterns during engineering works are nothing new and the system could have been designed to correctly display any service pattern that can physically be run on the SSR network. Displaying "Hammersmith & City line to Upminster via Barking", or even having the displayed line/destination change automatically at the relevant location once the destination and route has been entered into the system would have prevented these issues entirely. I am aware that the computer systems on the S-stock are somewhat archaic, but systems that can deal with situations like this have been around for decades now - not least on numerous bus information systems on the continent. Perhaps d7666 can elaborate whether such flexibility will arrive with 4LM. It would certainly help. I could never work out why the trains were not fitted to use a tablet for the Passenger info, also could be used for driver log in and supplying info to the driver concerning duties, engineering works etc. Then easy upload wireless upload from anywhere on the network. it would save masses of paper as well. If this had happened the train would know the correct destinations to show and there would be no need for driver intervention unless there was disruption. |
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Aug 13, 2021 12:11:30 GMT
I could never work out why the trains were not fitted to use a tablet for the Passenger info, also could be used for driver log in and supplying info to the driver concerning duties, engineering works etc. Then easy upload wireless upload from anywhere on the network. it would save masses of paper as well. If this had happened the train would know the correct destinations to show and there would be no need for driver intervention unless there was disruption. CBTC does automatically set up the destination codes for drivers on S stock though they do have to confirm CBTC has offered the correct information before its displayed to passengers. Service control also have the ability to remotely upload messages to the train - things like disruption on other lines or to use a current example, the lack of interchange due to escalator works at South Kensington. Station staff are issued with personal iPads and much of their role is now set up to work using them. There was a threat of issuing drivers with iPads but this has come to nothing thus far. Concerns about electronic devices in the train cab are believed to be the main barrier. |
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Post by t697 on Aug 13, 2021 16:30:00 GMT
The better solution would probably have been designing much more flexibility into the customer infromation systems on the trains from the start. Such unusual service patterns during engineering works are nothing new and the system could have been designed to correctly display any service pattern that can physically be run on the SSR network. Displaying "Hammersmith & City line to Upminster via Barking", or even having the displayed line/destination change automatically at the relevant location once the destination and route has been entered into the system would have prevented these issues entirely. I am aware that the computer systems on the S-stock are somewhat archaic, but systems that can deal with situations like this have been around for decades now - not least on numerous bus information systems on the continent. Perhaps d7666 can elaborate whether such flexibility will arrive with 4LM. It would certainly help. I could never work out why the trains were not fitted to use a tablet for the Passenger info, also could be used for driver log in and supplying info to the driver concerning duties, engineering works etc. Then easy upload wireless upload from anywhere on the network. it would save masses of paper as well. If this had happened the train would know the correct destinations to show and there would be no need for driver intervention unless there was disruption. I'm not d7666 but I can confirm it would be straightforward to add CIS trips to the train even now. The only thing that's not that very practical is for the messaging and displays to change their line allegiance part way through the trip.
As regards the idea that the train could be automatically told its destination, that was proposed in the original design stages with the original, cancelled ATC and is technically possible with the ATC currently part implemented across the railway. However, both times there was resistance to making it fully automatic. Maybe seen as one tiny step on the route to GOA4 or elimination of the operator in the cab. The compromise has been that the automation 'offers' the T/Op the trip the ATC expects to run but the T/Op has to 'confirm' it by a single key stroke - or call control to query. This does mean the T/Op is aware if the ATC offers a trip they weren't expecting!
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Post by jimbo on Aug 13, 2021 20:03:01 GMT
Services resumed this morning however it seems only the eastbound track received the full concrete slab and flat-bottomed rail treatment at Embankment. Wondering if a second round of closure will now be needed? So what state is the westbound in now? Original condition, or some in between state? Is it still allowed normal running speed? |
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Post by d7666 on Aug 16, 2021 20:30:01 GMT
The better solution would probably have been designing much more flexibility into the customer infromation systems on the trains from the start. Such unusual service patterns during engineering works are nothing new and the system could have been designed to correctly display any service pattern that can physically be run on the SSR network. Displaying "Hammersmith & City line to Upminster via Barking", or even having the displayed line/destination change automatically at the relevant location once the destination and route has been entered into the system would have prevented these issues entirely. I am aware that the computer systems on the S-stock are somewhat archaic, but systems that can deal with situations like this have been around for decades now - not least on numerous bus information systems on the continent. Perhaps d7666 can elaborate whether such flexibility will arrive with 4LM. It would certainly help. the Passenger info, also could be used for driver log in and supplying info to the driver concerning duties, engineering works etc. Then easy upload wireless upload from anywhere on the network. it would save masses of paper as well. If this had happened the train would know the correct destinations to show and there would be no need for driver intervention unless there was disruption. I'm going to bounce that one back to you. Exactly what "anywhere on the network" wireless infrastructure are you proposing would be used in tunnels ? Being in favour of ideas and innovation I don't disagree with the concept of all having tablets, but you do have to have the infrastructure in place. Tablets are cheap and simple, the wireless infrastructure less so. |
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Aug 17, 2021 10:31:16 GMT
@spinba11 you can start a new thread (just add a few words of context and link to this one), the forum staff can move posts to your new thread if you choose.
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Post by superteacher on Aug 18, 2021 7:14:42 GMT
@spinba11 you can start a new thread (just add a few words of context and link to this one), the forum staff can move posts to your new thread if you choose.
EDIT: Please use the thread below for continued discussion on accessibility and equality.
districtdavesforum.co.uk/thread/32429/
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Post by alpinejohn on Aug 18, 2021 9:23:21 GMT
When these unusual operations are planned how about someone in the planning team notifying all affected station staff to ensure that instead of putting up poems and inspirational messages - a member of station staff is tasked with writing up a suitable message in pen/chalk on the message board (you know that school easel like thing which seems to always be placed right in the way somewhere at the station entrance). Something like .. special services will be operating today - Our normal train service calling at all stations to Barking is being extended to call at all stations to Upminster along the District line route. With a similar tannoy announcement made every few minutes which should ensure the needs of the deaf and visually impaired and confused commuters and tourists are covered. Simples...  |
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Post by scheduler on Aug 27, 2021 21:40:05 GMT
Timetables issues a memo to all line and station management affected 4 weeks in advance of closures. The information should be getting through to everyone concerned.
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