TfL's submission to the Comprehensive Spending Review

If you transferred 1996 or 1995 stock to the Piccadilly you'd first have to train the Piccadilly IOps on that stock then they'd have to train the other TOps.  By the time they've done that it wouldn't be long before the new stock arrived (2023) and the whole training process would have to start again.  During that time the IOps and TOps would have to spend time away from their normal duties and I suspect the Piccadilly is just as short of drivers as the Central Line.

The 1995/96s would also need to be refitted with tripcocks which I believe were removed (please correct me if I'm wrong)

The joys of having a 33 1/3hz supply

Here are a few thoughts I had about the whole idea of a new fleet for the Jubilee, transfer of the 96TS to the Northern and the subsequent split of the latter into two lines:

1) Because of the door spacing problem posed by the PEDs, it seems likely that in order to fit with the existing infrastructure the new fleet would be more akin design-wise to the S stock as opposed to the new Piccadilly fleet i.e. with walkthrough carriages but not fully articulated, each car has its own pair of bogies instead of bogies effectively being shared between cars.

2) With the transfer of the 96TS, would it make sense to keep them all on one branch of the Northern instead of completely mixing the combined 95/96TS fleet?

3) How many changes would be necessary (other than the obvious loss of a carriage) to make the 96TS compatible with the Northern line?

Walkthrough trains will add a bit of capacity.

The argument seems to go that the Jubilee line is an important line, but its trains are becoming unreliable lately, so it is time to replace them. But never mind because we can use them on the Northern line, the most used of all lines! As if unreliability doesn't matter over there!

Where are they going to fit them all?  They've got Morden, Golders Green (depots), Edgware, Highgate and High Barnet (sidings) plus I seem to recall there are going to be two sidings at Battersea.  How many trains do they actually have room for?

I am surprised that the Waterloo & City line does not get a mention in this presentation, when the other parts of DTUP do; the new trains for Bakerloo & Central lines. The demo driverless trains scheme for the line may have attracted support from Boris! But perhaps it is just unachievable within the decade, which seems to be the target for most projects included, which will please many people. Perhaps six new short trains were considered insignificant alongside the larger lines. Or perhaps talk of spending on a line unused now for over six months would be an embarrassment! Maybe the City could eventually be persuaded to contribute as they did for the current trains?

Don't you start!

Shhhhh we love our humour heehee

Just been reading the CSR Prospectus. I see that it's realistic in accepting the Bakerloo extension has to be pushed a long way into the future. It does seem keen however on a new Jubilee line fleet and talks of using some of the present 96TS fleet to augment the Northern line, which has been discussed above and in the Northern line Split thread.

It occurs to me that if the Northern line took a sensible number, there would still be towards 40 trains left over. With no Bakerloo line extension imminent, one could consider using 96TS on the Bakerloo for 10 - 20 years to delay the expenditure on that new fleet. There are infrastructure constraints of course like the curves at Piccadilly Circus and no doubt some EMC issues to resolve but it doesn't seem a totally unreasonable stock cascade in straitened times. Perhaps Piccadilly Circus SB and Waterloo platforms could be fitted with Automated Gap Fillers to help mitigate the PTI gaps with the longer cars.
Retrofit tripcocks again! Install CSDE kit, maybe continue using platform OPO mirrors and monitors? Traction pack software tweak to revert to pre-ATC performance. CIS data set for the Bakerloo:- Not difficult, it's a simple end-to-end line like the Jubilee. Etc., etc.

I also like the idea of using surplus ‘96 Stock on the Bakerloo.
hopefully retaining in-cab CCTV so that train cabs could be slightly in tunnel at the tight stations, as the difference of 123cm (4’) maybe significant.

So making best use of what you already have does indeed seem unavoidable and may indeed trigger rolling stock cascades of still serviceable stock. But I have my doubts about using former Jubillee Line stock on the Bakerloo Line - as they may not fit!

The official dimensions in the publicly available TFL Rolling Stock Information Sheets (v4) show the "length over car ends" for Jubillee and Northern stock is a fair bit longer than the current Bakerloo 1972 stock.

The longest cars 1995/1996 stock cars on Northern/Jubillee (they are the same) come in at 1.69 Metres longer than the longest 1972 cars (5 feet 6 1/2 inches old money). Sadly this is a bit more significant than the few inches mentioned above, and raises the question of whether they will fit the same kinetic envelope? Also sections of the Bakerloo include some fairly severe reverse curves (usually accompanied by squealing wheels) hence these locations may require some tunnel surgery to allow any longer stock regardless of whether it was taken from Jubillee or Northern fleets.

I'm not sure there would be much of an issue from an EMC perspective. The Bakerloo line uses Jointless Track Circuits so there wouldn't be the usual 33 1/3Hz issue, the only problem might be that the Bakerloo uses a 50Hz signalling supply rather than a 125Hz one.