|
Post by jimbo on Aug 14, 2020 0:42:59 GMT
..... I think they were only interested in what was under the floor and not what the public had to use. Probably be the same with the new trains. Note no drivers door. By order placement the train has cab doors: see here
|
|
|
Post by jimbo on Aug 14, 2020 1:00:41 GMT
Is there any further news about how they intend to solve the air conditioning problem on the new low level stock? Note the video says "air cooled" not "air conditioned" The TfL order confirmation press release quotes Siemens saying they "feature full air-conditioning - a real challenge in hot tunnels" here. August 2020 Underground News says: "Cooling systems will then need an upgrade at Earl’s Court, Knightsbridge, Green Park, Piccadilly Circus, Leicester Square, and Holborn, as will the York Road fan" Presume this is all included in the agreed budget for introducing the new trains. The video was 2014 release, a long way back in the design process.
|
|
|
Post by Chris L on Aug 14, 2020 21:22:56 GMT
Note the video says "air cooled" not "air conditioned" The TfL order confirmation press release quotes Siemens saying they "feature full air-conditioning - a real challenge in hot tunnels" here. August 2020 Underground News says: "Cooling systems will then need an upgrade at Earl’s Court, Knightsbridge, Green Park, Piccadilly Circus, Leicester Square, and Holborn, as will the York Road fan" Presume this is all included in the agreed budget for introducing the new trains. The video was 2014 release, a long way back in the design process. There has been a programme of upgrading the fans in various shafts in recent years.
|
|
|
Post by jimbo on Aug 15, 2020 1:36:11 GMT
The TfL order confirmation press release quotes Siemens saying they "feature full air-conditioning - a real challenge in hot tunnels" here. August 2020 Underground News says: "Cooling systems will then need an upgrade at Earl’s Court, Knightsbridge, Green Park, Piccadilly Circus, Leicester Square, and Holborn, as will the York Road fan" Presume this is all included in the agreed budget for introducing the new trains. The video was 2014 release, a long way back in the design process. There has been a programme of upgrading the fans in various shafts in recent years. Indeed, it looks like York Road is the last one left to do. But what about all those "cooling systems" to be upgraded? Do they currently exist? I only recall experimental systems, e.g. Green Park. How big is an "upgrade"?
|
|
|
Post by Chris L on Aug 15, 2020 4:27:06 GMT
There has been a programme of upgrading the fans in various shafts in recent years. Indeed, it looks like York Road is the last one left to do. But what about all those "cooling systems" to be upgraded? Do they currently exist? I only recall experimental systems, e.g. Green Park. How big is an "upgrade"? The work is to replace the large fans along the deep level lines. Many were getting on in years. Obviously the new fans have to fit in the same space as the old ones but they are more efficient. The Victoria line fans were replaced with the new trains. They had lasted since the late 1960s. By comparison the fans on Crossrail are much bigger.
|
|
class411
Operations: Normal
Posts: 2,747
|
Post by class411 on Aug 15, 2020 9:05:26 GMT
So it appears that the whole 'air cooling' thing is a complete red herring. Presumably some PR oik thought it sounded 'cooler' than 'air conditioning', and didn't realise that what it actually, effectively, means is 'not liquid cooled'.
And the answer to the 'heat dumping' problem is literally nothing other than more effective fans.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2020 21:27:02 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Chris L on Aug 29, 2020 21:59:00 GMT
9 shorter cars is a possible configuration.
|
|
|
Post by bigvern on Aug 29, 2020 22:00:30 GMT
The cars I understand are articulated, so are much shorter than conventional cars, as the ends of the intermediate cars are over the bogie centres, cars 1 and 9 would be longer cars articulated at the trailing end with conventional bogie at the leading end.
|
|
|
Post by jimbo on Aug 30, 2020 7:38:21 GMT
9-car trains is not a typo! The current Picc trains are 6-car, but they replaced 7-car trains. The Bakerloo still has 7-car trains of similar length. The new trains have only double-doorways to ease boarding. It seems that the first, third and fifth cars from each end will be cut around where the single door pocket holds the open door, so the bogie can sit beneath the car. The second and fourth cars from each end will end around where the double door pocket holds the open door, with no bogies but they are supported by the adjoining cars. Of course, with outside hung doors like other modern stocks, there will no longer be door pockets. Open car ends will allow passengers to walk through the train. With shorter than normal cars, there will be less relative movement than with current inter-car doorways, but more cars will be needed to make the same length of train. The idea for such radical trains dates back to 1998, although the PPP took away LU's right to design the Victoria line trains, so these will be the first trains they have ordered since: this articleIt seems to me that the distance between bogies will probably be similar to former trains, and therefore the gap at curved platforms will be little changed.
|
|
|
Post by jimbo on Aug 30, 2020 22:52:28 GMT
Because these recent posts have been relocated to an older thread, they no longer appear in the recent threads listing! The link no longer works in my last posting. Perhaps too long? That is why I left it in full.
|
|
Tom
Administrator
Signalfel?
Posts: 4,198
|
Post by Tom on Aug 30, 2020 23:20:33 GMT
Apologies, my error in copying the link when I reformatted it. It now works correctly.
|
|
|
Post by stapler on Aug 31, 2020 7:00:34 GMT
When this stock reaches the Central Line (about 2035 at the present rate?), won't the reduced size and extreme curvature at Bank on the old CLR section be a constraining factor? I've heard TfL state there'll be a 20% uplift in capacity, but isn't that wildly optimistic?
|
|
|
Post by Dstock7080 on Aug 31, 2020 9:17:49 GMT
When this stock reaches the Central Line (about 2035 at the present rate?), won't the reduced size and extreme curvature at Bank on the old CLR section be a constraining factor? The new trains will have much shorter cars and be able to fit the Bakerloo and Central but with varying train length of course, possibly 9 and 11 respectively.
|
|
|
Post by norbitonflyer on Aug 31, 2020 10:37:38 GMT
When this stock reaches the Central Line (about 2035 at the present rate?), won't the reduced size and extreme curvature at Bank on the old CLR section be a constraining factor? The new trains will have much shorter cars and be able to fit the Bakerloo and Central but with varying train length of course, possibly 9 and 11 respectively. Shorter carriages can fit the curves more closely, so The Gap should be smaller.
|
|
|
Post by linus on Aug 31, 2020 11:57:32 GMT
I wonder whether these will have extensible floor plates, like much mainline stock, to fill the gaps. While these would constitute additional moving parts and failure points, presumably they could be as reliable as the doors, which these days seem pretty good. There would be many challenges such as variable distances (solvable by sensors), variable platform heights, cant (/slope), curvature (significant over the extensive door width); and there presumably isn't much available space in these low-floor trains. Also because of the wide doors they would be large and need to support a lot of weight, so bulky and heavy. But the curves at Bank, Embankment, Piccadilly Circus and others are lethal, and H&S must be on the case for new trains. Platform-based extensions are another possibility, which could involve a lot of chopping up; or perhaps combine that with general elevation to bring level boarding (assuming the trains themselves aren't lower, as with the S-Stock - but the tube stock is pretty low already). On balance I reckon platform work is probably preferable.
|
|
|
Post by John Tuthill on Aug 31, 2020 12:41:02 GMT
I wonder whether these will have extensible floor plates, like much mainline stock, to fill the gaps. While these would constitute additional moving parts and failure points, presumably they could be as reliable as the doors, which these days seem pretty good. There would be many challenges such as variable distances (solvable by sensors), variable platform heights, cant (/slope), curvature (significant over the extensive door width); and there presumably isn't much available space in these low-floor trains. Also because of the wide doors they would be large and need to support a lot of weight, so bulky and heavy. But the curves at Bank, Embankment, Piccadilly Circus and others are lethal, and H&S must be on the case for new trains. Platform-based extensions are another possibility, which could involve a lot of chopping up; or perhaps combine that with general elevation to bring level boarding (assuming the trains themselves aren't lower, as with the S-Stock - but the tube stock is pretty low already). On balance I reckon platform work is probably preferable. Didn't someone post sometime ago, a video showing extending plates on the NYC Subway?
|
|
|
Post by t697 on Aug 31, 2020 14:45:34 GMT
So it appears that the whole 'air cooling' thing is a complete red herring. Presumably some PR oik thought it sounded 'cooler' than 'air conditioning', and didn't realise that what it actually, effectively, means is 'not liquid cooled'. And the answer to the 'heat dumping' problem is literally nothing other than more effective fans. I think 'air cooling' is just what it says, whereas 'air conditioning' should more correctly apply to systems that actively control the delivered humidity as well as the temperature. So the system on S stock is, and most likely the New Tube system will be, 'air cooling', but common usage has applied 'air conditioning' to simpler cooling systems.
|
|
class411
Operations: Normal
Posts: 2,747
|
Post by class411 on Aug 31, 2020 14:58:43 GMT
So it appears that the whole 'air cooling' thing is a complete red herring. Presumably some PR oik thought it sounded 'cooler' than 'air conditioning', and didn't realise that what it actually, effectively, means is 'not liquid cooled'. And the answer to the 'heat dumping' problem is literally nothing other than more effective fans. I think 'air cooling' is just what it says, whereas 'air conditioning' should more correctly apply to systems that actively control the delivered humidity as well as the temperature. So the system on S stock is, and most likely the New Tube system will be, 'air cooling', but common usage has applied 'air conditioning' to simpler cooling systems. Just to make sure sure I've got what you're saying. The systems as installed, and potentially to be installed, are and will be, active cooling systems (i.e. with compressors and radiators)?
|
|
|
Post by Chris L on Aug 31, 2020 16:11:17 GMT
I think 'air cooling' is just what it says, whereas 'air conditioning' should more correctly apply to systems that actively control the delivered humidity as well as the temperature. So the system on S stock is, and most likely the New Tube system will be, 'air cooling', but common usage has applied 'air conditioning' to simpler cooling systems. Just to make sure sure I've got what you're saying. The systems as installed, and potentially to be installed, are and will be, active cooling systems (i.e. with compressors and radiators)? Space considerations come into this. Air conditioning is possible on large trains, particularly when most of the track is in the open air. I believe S stock has air conditioning (but I may be wrong). Tube stock doesn't have the space for full air conditioning with evaporators and condensers. Condensers would also generate additional heat in tunnels. A promising set up was under consideration at one point. This involved "gel" blocks to be installed under seats. These would be chilled whilst in the open air and then cool the train in tunnels. Unfortunately, the "gel" didn't meet LUL's fire safety standards and the project was abandoned.
|
|
rincew1nd
Administrator
Junior Under-wizzard of quiz
Posts: 10,286
|
Post by rincew1nd on Aug 31, 2020 16:17:11 GMT
I wonder whether these will have extensible floor plates, like much mainline stock, to fill the gaps. While these would constitute additional moving parts and failure points, presumably they could be as reliable as the doors, which these days seem pretty good. "Much mainline stock". Are you sure about that? At this moment the only mainline stock with extensible floor plates that are passed for passenger use are the Anglian 'Flirt' units (though AIUI there are several stations where they can't be deployed). MerseyRail is currently taking delivery of units with sliding steps and has rebuild every platform to the same standard so they can be used (even the platforms that currently have steps to access them).
|
|
|
Post by jimbo on Aug 31, 2020 20:04:27 GMT
LU are designing a prototype ‘active-gap filler’, for trial at Baker Street (Met) next year, which will be the first of its kind in the world, according to a staff circular "Our Plan, London Underground 2019/20". It is intended to eventually raise all tube platforms to provide level access, since tube gauge trains cannot be any lower.
|
|
|
Post by jimbo on Aug 31, 2020 20:31:35 GMT
When this stock reaches the Central Line (about 2035 at the present rate?), won't the reduced size and extreme curvature at Bank on the old CLR section be a constraining factor? I've heard TfL state there'll be a 20% uplift in capacity, but isn't that wildly optimistic? 20% wildly optimistic? The 2016 Business Case for the Deep Tube Upgrade Programme said the Central line will see 30% capacity uplift in the trunk section and 60% to 95% on its branches! How can this be achieved on a line that currently has long trains and 32tph peak? Well the new Central line trains will be the longest on LU, a couple of metres longer than the current ones, and with walk through cars so there can be standing over the couplers. Also the current peak service is for an hour in one direction, whilst the plan is for three hour peaks in both directions, at 33tph and maybe 36tph. Then all trains will run to the termini in peaks rather than short workings, which leave people waiting at central area stations for a through train in the evenings. The Central line case has improved with 3% growth in demand expected despite the Elizabeth line planned opening, and significant run-time improvements were found possible.
|
|
|
Post by stapler on Aug 31, 2020 20:53:48 GMT
Does anyone ever believe what's in a business case? I suppose it depends on what you mean by "capacity".....Standing over the couplers doesn't seem to me to be very comfortable a means of travel,just cramming fish heads into the rounded corners of the sardine can. Of course,if Central London offices stay as occupied as they are at present, 10tph may suffice......
|
|
|
Post by dm1 on Aug 31, 2020 21:27:17 GMT
I wonder whether these will have extensible floor plates, like much mainline stock, to fill the gaps. While these would constitute additional moving parts and failure points, presumably they could be as reliable as the doors, which these days seem pretty good. "Much mainline stock". Are you sure about that? At this moment the only mainline stock with extensible floor plates that are passed for passenger use are the Anglian 'Flirt' units (though AIUI there are several stations where they can't be deployed). MerseyRail is currently taking delivery of units with sliding steps and has rebuild every platform to the same standard so they can be used (even the platforms that currently have steps to access them). In the UK yes, but on the continent stock with gap fillers has become extremely widespread in recent years - maybe even standard under many circumstances. I personally think that using such train-mounted gap fillers is essential for the deep tube lines, and I think it would be a big mistake not to do so. The technology has shown itself to be very reliable, and no doubt significantly more reliable than any untested platform-mounted solution. Just turning a large gap into a small step would be a significant improvement, even without raising the platform heights to match the trains, which could be done later if desired. This is one example (also manufacteured by Siemens, I should add - for Stadler stock this is also a standard feature)
|
|
|
Post by jimbo on Aug 31, 2020 21:57:53 GMT
The new trains will have much shorter cars and be able to fit the Bakerloo and Central but with varying train length of course, possibly 9 and 11 respectively. Shorter carriages can fit the curves more closely, so The Gap should be smaller. The gap depends less on the length of the cars than the length between adjacent bogies. Current cars have the bogies at around the quarter and three-quarter positions beneath each car. The new shorter cars will have bogies near the ends of each car. Assuming even spacing of bogies along the train, I estimate 11.75 metres between bogie centres on the new Picc trains, compared with 11.124m on the current trains, so 5% longer and maybe slightly larger gaps at curved platforms! I believe most cars will be the same dimensions for the Central line, except for the end cars which will be adjusted to fit platforms. The current Central line trains have traditional car lengths with 10m between bogies, so 17.5% longer and probably larger gaps at places like Bank! That's progress?
|
|
|
Post by jimbo on Sept 1, 2020 3:59:48 GMT
When it was decided that S stock would berth beside platforms for level access, rather than overlapping in traditional style, investigations were made into fitting gap-fillers to each train doorway. This must have been based upon the number of platforms that would have required active gap fillers over the system, compared to the number of train doorways. Eventually they went for adjusting track and platforms to reduce the gaps, given worries over reliability of active gap fillers. Ten years since the S stock appeared, reliability will no doubt have improved, but there remains the problem of fitting such equipment within the restricted space beneath tube-gauge trains.
|
|
|
Post by stapler on Sept 1, 2020 6:48:24 GMT
How will the end cars be "adjusted"? Does this mean shortened? (thus reducing capacity)
|
|
|
Post by jimbo on Sept 1, 2020 7:23:59 GMT
How will the end cars be "adjusted"? Does this mean shortened? (thus reducing capacity) Looks to me like the Central line end cars will be about a metre shorter than those on the Picc line, but with two extra cars to make up similar length to current trains there.
|
|
|
Post by johnlinford on Sept 1, 2020 8:16:11 GMT
Surely it's not just the position of bogies/car length but also the position of the doors relative. EG Bank on the Central the double doors often have very little gap but the single car end doors a big gap. I believe the plan is to not have the end doors, meaning doors are further from car ends and therefore closer to the platform? I recall the double doors at Bank often having a v small gap, for example.
|
|