|
Post by jimbo on Feb 9, 2023 0:14:37 GMT
Larger, straighter tunnels on the Jubilee? PED lateral offset from the track,the ex-Bakerloo tunn3ls from Finchley Road to Baker St, and, to a slightly lesser extent, the original Jubilee line tunnels will all constrain any new trains to roughly the same profile as today. Door spacing n3eds to be identical to line up with the PEDs. The current Victoria Line trains are too big to transfer over other lines. Comparing measurements, they are actually narrower than the previous stock by 25mm, an inch, but taller by 13mm over rail level. The big difference is in car lengths, with the cab cars 517mm longer and the other cars 368mm longer than 1967 stock. So they have a larger swept overhang on curves. The space train concept proposed much shorter cars, which reduced overhang on curves and allowed wider cars with a big difference is standing floor area. The new Picc trains feature shorter cars than conventional tube stock so possibly some width increase. The track geometry on the Jubilee line is less restrictive than the Piccadilly line, which might allow some relaxation on a build for that line.
|
|
|
Post by Dstock7080 on Apr 7, 2023 12:47:08 GMT
|
|
|
Post by ijmad on Apr 8, 2023 9:17:56 GMT
Is it really only 10% boost in capacity? It seems like walkthrough carriages would provide a bigger uplift than that, but maybe more as a result of people being able to evenly spread themselves between busier and quieter carriages as much as there being extra actual space.
|
|
|
Post by spsmiler on Apr 8, 2023 17:43:32 GMT
My own experience on the Elizabeth line is that few passengers actually walk through the train from crowded carriages to carriages with oodles of available seats
|
|
Chris L
Posts: 1,214
Member is Online
|
Post by Chris L on Apr 8, 2023 20:22:47 GMT
My own experience on the Elizabeth line is that few passengers actually walk through the train from crowded carriages to carriages with oodles of available seats I travel on the Abbey Wood branch very often. At every stop some people get on the train at the point they were waiting on the platform and walk through to the next carriage. This is a useful improvement for new trains entering service nowadays.
|
|
trainwizard
100 posts in 367 days on the forum. Close enough.
Posts: 137
|
Post by trainwizard on Apr 8, 2023 20:53:22 GMT
This is a useful improvement for new trains entering service nowadays. Agreed. In my experience, the allowance of passengers to move between carriages in order to get closer to their exit is also beneficial. I remember many times walking up the S stock train in order to be closer to the exit at Uxbridge.
|
|
|
Post by spsmiler on Apr 9, 2023 20:39:22 GMT
Walking through a train in order to be closer to the exit is a different thing than walking through the train from crowded carriages to find carriages with oodles of available seats
|
|
trainwizard
100 posts in 367 days on the forum. Close enough.
Posts: 137
|
Post by trainwizard on Apr 9, 2023 21:39:42 GMT
I know - that's why I said: The allowance of passengers to move between carriages in order to get closer to their exit is also beneficial. I was suggesting that people being able to be closer to an exit is an additional reason that having walkthrough carriages is useful - not that it's the same or equivalent to moving through the train for available seats. I apologise if my wording wasn't clear.
|
|
Chris L
Posts: 1,214
Member is Online
|
Post by Chris L on Apr 10, 2023 8:01:15 GMT
Walking through a train in order to be closer to the exit is a different thing than walking through the train from crowded carriages to find carriages with oodles of available seats Sorry but people do walk through trains to find seats/more standing space when it is possible on the newer trains (and between cars on the DLR).
|
|
Chris M
Global Moderator
Forum Quizmaster
Always happy to receive quiz ideas and pictures by email or PM
Posts: 19,663
|
Post by Chris M on Apr 10, 2023 12:53:32 GMT
Some people do, perhaps most people, but not everyone. Once you have a certain number of people who have not moved down then subsequent boarders cannot.
|
|
metman
Global Moderator
5056 05/12/1961-23/04/2012 RIP
Posts: 7,414
|
Post by metman on Apr 10, 2023 19:44:02 GMT
Is it really only 10% boost in capacity? It seems like walkthrough carriages would provide a bigger uplift than that, but maybe more as a result of people being able to evenly spread themselves between busier and quieter carriages as much as there being extra actual space. The lack of car ends it is assumed will naturally provide additional space by not being present however, if you look at the proposed design, those articulated sections between the cars are actually quite narrow. Also, the 1973 stock has vestibules at the car ends where the single leaf doors are. The new stock doesn’t have this so the wider saloon areas and know doubt reduced seating probably plays a role in this capacity. Of course, if the new signalling system was part of the upgrade the increase in capacity would be far greater.
|
|
|
Post by Alight on Apr 10, 2023 20:29:28 GMT
When will a mock-up be available for the public to visit? - presumably this year if roll out is expected 2025?
I recall the S stock one at Euston Square Gardens was in 2008 ahead of the roll out from 2010. The '09 stock was also available to view in Euston Square Gardens c. 2006.
|
|
|
Post by jimbo on Apr 10, 2023 21:11:20 GMT
Mockup of cab and a car arrived in UK near a year ago link but did not see a public viewing. Extra capacity must come mainly from full length train to fit current platforms rather that the 6-car present Picc trains.
|
|
|
Post by ijmad on Apr 10, 2023 22:51:37 GMT
I know the resignalling is shelved indefinitely but I assume they are still procuring enough stock to support a 32tph service on the Piccadilly. Or will those trains perhaps end up elsewhere? Are they still going to install PEDs where possible?
|
|
|
Post by jimbo on Apr 11, 2023 0:26:55 GMT
The current order is for an upgrade to 30tph, but that would need new signalling so current expectation is 27tph with some trains spare. An upgrade to 33tph or 36tph would require a further order of trains, perhaps along with a build for the Bakerloo Line. Only worthwhile as part of the resignalling project. PEDs were part of the conditions for driverless trains, for which TfL have been unable to build an economic case. They are not expected to be installed other than on new lines.
The total length of the new trains will be around 113 metres, some 6 metres longer than current trains, although earlier Piccadilly line trains, like current Bakerloo Line trains, were another half-metre longer still. So over 5% increase in length, so possibly also capacity, apart from less seats and room over inter-car passages.
|
|
|
Post by jimbo on Apr 15, 2023 8:08:19 GMT
You will probably have noticed that the new Piccadilly Line trains have a variation on the LU corporate livery, being the addition of a narrow blue waist band. This has been part of the concept for ten or more years, although the blue lower panels were only recently reinstated to the plans. My question is the purpose of this thin blue line. Is it just a restatement of the LU corporate blue of the lower panels? Or is it confirmation that the train is on the Piccadilly Line? Will a follow up build for the Bakerloo have a thin brown waist band instead?
|
|
DWS
every second count's
Posts: 2,472
|
Post by DWS on Apr 15, 2023 9:57:13 GMT
I think the answer to what will the on the new Bakerloo Line body side will depend on 1, if the extension from Elephant & Castle to Lewisham gets built. 2 Funding for new trains and signalling for the Queens Park to Lewisham section. North of Queens Park is down to Network Rail .
|
|
metman
Global Moderator
5056 05/12/1961-23/04/2012 RIP
Posts: 7,414
|
Post by metman on Apr 15, 2023 15:45:30 GMT
Yes, all good points. Still dislike those tiny porthole type windows. I know the reason why but still looks rubbish to me!
|
|
Tom
Administrator
Signalfel?
Posts: 4,176
|
Post by Tom on Apr 15, 2023 17:54:23 GMT
till dislike those tiny porthole type windows. I know the reason why but still looks rubbish to me! I remember someone (can't remember who) in LU had to deal with the adverse comments from people about the small windows on 2009 Tube Stock, and they reputedly said that the only reason Bombardier's design was accepted was because of the Victoria line being 100% tunnel, and that any repetition of it on other stocks wouldn't be acceptable. Corporate memory is very short these days!
|
|
|
Post by jimbo on Apr 15, 2023 20:33:29 GMT
The PriestmanGoode conceptual design to be used by the train manufacturers was said to be inspired by 1938 tube stock, hence the small windows and 38xxx numbering scheme. Like the Victoria Line trains, the vent system requires a lot of space in the walls to link the floor level and the ceiling.
|
|
Tom
Administrator
Signalfel?
Posts: 4,176
|
Post by Tom on Apr 15, 2023 20:39:57 GMT
I would suggest that those windows are much smaller than those on 1938 stock, and retiterate that they go against the previous position that it would not be permissible for stocks which run above ground to have such small windows. They're more reminiscent of CSLR 'Padded Cells'!
|
|
|
Post by jimbo on Apr 15, 2023 20:49:22 GMT
You will probably have noticed that the new Piccadilly Line trains have a variation on the LU corporate livery, being the addition of a narrow blue waist band. This has been part of the concept for ten or more years, although the blue lower panels were only recently reinstated to the plans. My question is the purpose of this thin blue line. Is it just a restatement of the LU corporate blue of the lower panels? Or is it confirmation that the train is on the Piccadilly Line? Will a follow up build for the Bakerloo have a thin brown waist band instead? On reflection, since the blue lower panels on the new train are only a recent decision, and the blue waist band was the only representation of that corporate colour for many years, I conclude it is not a line identification feature. For many years the Bakerloo was to receive the first build, and yet the blue waistline was still shown.
|
|
|
Post by spsmiler on Apr 15, 2023 20:51:17 GMT
(sarcasm alert:) The small windows might be part of a longer term plan to return to windows of a size not dissimilar to those on the 'padded cell' trains
(edit to add - sorry for duplication - Tom already mentioned this ... I was typing this message at the time)
Also, it could be said that the windows on the Central line 1992 stock are too big, because they hmake the trains more like ovens in hot sunny weather.
Also, re: adding the thin blue stripe to the existing corporate livery, I like it - I think the trains look better for it and it should be rolled out over the entire LU fleet - with the stripe being in line colour, with either thinner toothpaste stripes or short length stripes (1 metre long - pink / yellow / green) with diagonal colour abutments for S7 trains.
|
|
Chris L
Posts: 1,214
Member is Online
|
Post by Chris L on Apr 16, 2023 5:19:15 GMT
I would suggest that those windows are much smaller than those on 1938 stock, and retiterate that they go against the previous position that it would not be permissible for stocks which run above ground to have such small windows. They're more reminiscent of CSLR 'Padded Cells'! Hardly. Much smaller and high level.
|
|
|
Post by exwatfordian on Apr 28, 2023 22:55:25 GMT
I would suggest that those windows are much smaller than those on 1938 stock, and reiterate that they go against the previous position that it would not be permissible for stocks which run above ground to have such small windows. They're more reminiscent of CSLR 'Padded Cells'! It seems that someone has borrowed the windows from the Drain's 1940 Stock!
|
|
|
Post by brigham on Apr 29, 2023 7:28:39 GMT
I'm not sure about the wrap-round of the red cab front. It's so wide, it could be mistaken for a doorway.
|
|
metman
Global Moderator
5056 05/12/1961-23/04/2012 RIP
Posts: 7,414
|
Post by metman on Apr 29, 2023 11:18:15 GMT
I expect the cab might be in tunnel or beyond the passenger accessible area at many platforms.
|
|
|
Post by wbk727 on May 6, 2023 14:54:59 GMT
Still no lever to open passenger doors in case of emergency.
|
|
|
Post by ijmad on May 8, 2023 21:53:49 GMT
Still no lever to open passenger doors in case of emergency. Some idiot would definitely pull that lever while the train is crush loaded in a tunnel
|
|
|
Post by capitalomnibus on May 10, 2023 20:44:32 GMT
Some idiot would definitely pull that lever while the train is crush loaded in a tunnel Someone could do the same on the Elizabeth Line or Thameslink
|
|