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Post by d7666 on Feb 6, 2023 21:49:58 GMT
How does allowing make A kit run on supplier B kit 'limit flexibility' ? A on A only or B with B only is a limit. A on B is not. Wouldn’t it prevent A from offering something good which B cannot do, or is not (yet) in the ETCS agreed spec? In context of the whole ETCS / CBTC discussion, and not just picking out one line, my response to that is, in the words of Manuel - Que ?
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Post by d7666 on Feb 6, 2023 21:52:46 GMT
Do Vic Line train operators step back in peaks ? I haven't checked the details for Fridays or Weekends, but Mondays to Thursdays, Train Operators step back 0641-2302 at Walthamstow and 0615-2337 at Brixton. aha ! Which is how they do up to 36 TPH with two platform terminii. Or at least, is a major contribution to it. IIRC Jubilee operator step up was not in JNUP plans back at the time I refer to.
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Post by miff on Feb 6, 2023 23:12:33 GMT
In context of the whole ETCS / CBTC discussion, and not just picking out one line, my response to that is, in the words of Manuel - Que ? You asked how flexibility might be limited. My answer suggested flexibility might be limited if suppliers are only allowed to design to the ETCS spec. rather than something bespoke to the client’s needs. In many Metro systems interoperability between lines is not needed, so why bother with it?
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jimbo
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Post by jimbo on Feb 7, 2023 0:22:29 GMT
Oh yes. let's have yet another ATP incompatible with other LUL lines kit! So I suppose anything is possible. It must be unlikely that the Picc and Bakerloo will receive a current ATP system some ten years after the last was introduced, given the advances with technology. And yet the Picc will interwork with S stock to Ealing and Uxbridge!
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Post by jimbo on Feb 7, 2023 0:29:19 GMT
I can understand a three-platform terminus to reverse the full service at Stratford, perhaps designed with conventional signals in mind. But with trains reversing in centre sidings at West Hampstead, Willesden Green and Wembley Park, I can't see the need for a third platform at Stanmore, unless a full through service was envisaged to avoid delays detraining for siding reversals.
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Post by 100andthirty on Feb 7, 2023 7:19:49 GMT
As with all these capacity upgrades it’s what you do at the end of the line. Stepping back can only achieve so much…. Oft forgotten that a major key to the Jubilee Line post-TBTC timetable uplift was the third platform at Stanmore. The high TPH timetable don't work without at least 3 platforms at both Stratford and Stanmore; Stratford was already there of course. I would suggest that this consideration without the necessary civil engineering work at Elephant and Harrow (or Queens Park) would be a throttle on any ideas for such a high TPH service on the Bakerloo . I was saying that only the defined commands may be used. The scope for flexibility to deliver solutions for difficult situations is therefore limited.
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Post by coldplayfan18 on Feb 7, 2023 10:38:51 GMT
Just a random thought but I don’t like that the new trains will be walkthrough. Deep level trains are better suited to separate carriages I think. And also will all the deep level lines have the same trains as the Piccadilly? I like it as it is now with a variety of rolling stock.
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Post by Chris L on Feb 7, 2023 11:07:07 GMT
Sorry that is not want the customers want.
Mod edit [goldenarrow]: Quote removed. Please be selective about the part of a post you wish to quote rather than the whole post verbatim, particularly if you are replying to the previous post in the thread.
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Post by Chris M on Feb 7, 2023 13:12:07 GMT
To be clear, it is the walk through trains that customers want. Most normal customers don't care one way or the other about whether the rolling stock is the same or different as on other lines as long as they all have the features they want - on metro services this is primarily enough space so they can board, plenty of comfortable seats and on-board information that is all of useful, reliable and accessible. Walk-through trains provide additional space and make it easier to access available seats.
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Post by spsmiler on Feb 7, 2023 18:45:34 GMT
I can understand a three-platform terminus to reverse the full service at Stratford, perhaps designed with conventional signals in mind. But with trains reversing in centre sidings at West Hampstead, Willesden Green and Wembley Park, I can't see the need for a third platform at Stanmore, unless a full through service was envisaged to avoid delays detraining for siding reversals. My experience as a passenger is that at Stratford the Jubilee line should have been given four platforms - as especially in the rush hours trains queue to enter this station. Especially if travelling from West Ham it can sometimes be quicker to travel on the DLR - in the days before the DLR used this route I would choose a Silverlink North London Line (NLL) train as a way to avoid the queue. (In both cases it all depends / depended on the waiting time for the next DLR / NLL train) I also did this to avoid having to get my ticket out, altho' that situation ended when the Jubilee line gateline was removed. Just a random thought but I don’t like that the new trains will be walkthrough. Deep level trains are better suited to separate carriages I think. And also will all the deep level lines have the same trains as the Piccadilly? I like it as it is now with a variety of rolling stock. The new trains being walkthrough will definitely change the travelling experience, as there won't be either single leaf doors (which are usually the closest doors to the escalators at my home station) or car end perch seats. re: a range of train types, for years the Central Piccadilly and Bakerloo all had the same type of trains - Standard Stock. In our (near-ish) future whilst the Central, Bakerloo, W&C and Piccadilly are expected to have the same type of trains there will still be differences - Northern, Jubilee, Victoria will not have the same trains as the other deep level tube lines. Things will not be as bad (or confusing) as the SubSurface disaster where the different lines having identical trains can (and does) catch out all but the savvy - especially visitors to London
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Post by t697 on Feb 7, 2023 18:47:56 GMT
Oh yes. let's have yet another ATP incompatible with other LUL lines kit! So I suppose anything is possible. What is the difference from now since does it not require moving the trains through an incompatible signalling system anyway? It was a gentle moan about the difficulty of moving trains about the system when needed, e.g. for refurbishments at Acton Works in that nice new shed that's doing CLIP at the moment, or to be tested on the South Ealing Test Track. I accept it doesn't make much difference to normal operations as long as you never want to cascade a fleet to another line as was done in past times.
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Post by coldplayfan18 on Feb 7, 2023 19:28:05 GMT
Things will not be as bad (or confusing) as the SubSurface disaster where the different lines having identical trains can (and does) catch out all but the savvy - especially visitors to London That’s good then. It’s so easy with the subsurface trains to get the wrong one. Never happened to me luckily. Doesn’t help when the destination isn’t working on the front of or the sides of the train. And when the destination boards say “check front of train”. Mod edit [Dstock7080]: Quote edited. Please be selective about the part of a post you wish to quote rather than the whole post verbatim
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Post by t697 on Feb 7, 2023 19:32:43 GMT
I think you'll find that the sub-surface trains' displays and internal CIS have got a lot more reliable recently.
I did fancy a train destination of 'Check Platform display' though! Sorry for a little drift, now back to the New Tube.....
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Post by t697 on Feb 7, 2023 19:42:13 GMT
On the points about Jubilee line termini platforms, I don't see why 4 would be needed. Currently the service only uses 2 at Stratford so 3 should be able to cope with any credible service uplift surely. And Eb you have the middle road at North Greenwich available too. The provision of 3 at Stanmore was, I understood, to enable more end to end running, removing the delay to the next train caused when detraining at Willesden Green etc. But of course the additional trains in the Jubilee/Northern Additional Trains (JNAT) project weren't procured.
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Post by jimbo on Feb 7, 2023 19:52:24 GMT
The proposed 10 extra trains for the Jubilee Line were to reverse at short working sidings. link
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Post by Chris L on Feb 7, 2023 20:20:41 GMT
On the points about Jubilee line termini platforms, I don't see why 4 would be needed. Currently the service only uses 2 at Stratford so 3 should be able to cope with any credible service uplift surely. After trying using 2 platforms at Stratford for a time they have reverted to using three.
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Post by t697 on Feb 7, 2023 21:32:15 GMT
The proposed 10 extra trains for the Jubilee Line were to reverse at short working sidings. linkWell certainly a lot of different options covered in the article in that link. I lost count! I did note full service to Stanmore mentioned amongst them all though so I'd presumed that was why the extra platform was built. I see the detrainment at intermediate reversing points would have needed to be speeded up and would almost certainly have involved a degree of automation that would have been politically difficult shall we say.
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Post by joshua on Feb 7, 2023 22:24:13 GMT
I accept it doesn't make much difference to normal operations as long as you never want to cascade a fleet to another line as was done in past times. When was the last time rolling stock was cascaded from one line to another line?
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Post by Tom on Feb 7, 2023 22:30:24 GMT
The last big cascade was in the late 1980s when 1959 stock and 1972 (mark 2) stock swapped between the Bakerloo and Northern lines in readiness for Bakerloo line OPO. This was, however, the last part of a bigger cascade which resulted from the delivery of the two batches of 1983 stock and enabled the withdrawal of the last of the 1938 stock.
Most recently there was a much smaller cascade of 1962 stock trains from the Central to the Northern when 1992 stock came in on the Central. This enabled the withdrawal of the 1956 stock and possibly also enabled some 1972 Mark 1 units to move from the Northern to the Bakerloo and bolster the fleet there, though I might be wrong.
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Post by Chris M on Feb 7, 2023 22:35:27 GMT
I think it would be 1987 when the 1972 stock were transferred from the Jubilee line to the Bakerloo line. However there have been proposals to cascade the 1995 trains to the Jubilee line (or 1996 trains to the Northern) and, as far as I am aware, while presently unlikely to happen it would be incorrect to say it will never happen.
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Post by ijmad on Feb 8, 2023 0:39:06 GMT
I think it would be 1987 when the 1972 stock were transferred from the Jubilee line to the Bakerloo line. However there have been proposals to cascade the 1995 trains to the Jubilee line (or 1996 trains to the Northern) and, as far as I am aware, while presently unlikely to happen it would be incorrect to say it will never happen. A new fleet of Jubilee Line trains was proposed in the 2020 TfL report " Investment to get London and the UK moving again" which also mentions (p21) that some of the Jubilee fleet would be cascaded to the Northern Line. Of course none of these proposals have been funded but it seems like it's clearly on TfL's collective mind.
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Post by jimbo on Feb 8, 2023 4:40:53 GMT
The new generation of tube trains offers higher capacity, all double-doors, economic light-weight, air-conditioned, walk-through, etc. Passengers feel safer with walk-through enabling them to flee unsafe situations to seek other travellers. A standard fleet on a few lines saves initial development costs, staff training, maintenance costs, etc.
As mentioned already, pre-1938 standard stock served all tube lines of the time. A new generation of trains with underfloor equipment then served all lines as both 1938 and post-war aluminium 1959/62 stock. Even 1967/72 stock ran on four lines during its life. It was only from 1973 stock that LU started a separate build for each line, maybe due to fast technical advances of those times.
The new trains will likely arrive on the Picc and Bakerloo, but providing the Central service benefits from the high expenditure on CLIP that is promised, I wouldn't be surprised if new trains are not ordered before the Siemens contract expires. The unreliable Jubilee line trains seem to be a priority for replacement now, and just as the current Victoria line trains are too big to transfer on other lines, it would be no surprise to see a larger version of train on the Jubilee to take advantage of the larger, straighter tunnels on that line. These bigger trains could still transfer to Ruislip or Acton Works over sub-surface lines from Neasden. However, replacement of all other lines when due is likely to be of this new concept formation because of its benefits. I would not be surprised if the cosmetic appearance is adjusted between batches and different suppliers to give some updated image. So still some variety even if all lines end up with equivalent trains.
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Post by elsombernie on Feb 8, 2023 7:02:55 GMT
@chris L said: "After trying using 2 platforms at Stratford for a time they have reverted to using three."
WTT Jub18 (May 2022) show only platforms 14 and 15 in use at Stratford between roughly 0730 and 2300 Monday to Thursday.
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Post by 100andthirty on Feb 8, 2023 7:12:11 GMT
Larger, straighter tunnels on the Jubilee? PED lateral offset from the track,the ex-Bakerloo tunnels from Finchley Road to Baker St, and, to a slightly lesser extent, the original Jubilee line tunnels will all constrain any new trains to roughly the same profile as today. Door spacing needs to be identical to line up with the PEDs.
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Post by Tom on Feb 8, 2023 8:01:58 GMT
I think it would be 1987 when the 1972 stock were transferred from the Jubilee line to the Bakerloo line. According to contemporaneous notes in Underground News, it was 1988.
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Post by metman on Feb 8, 2023 17:11:28 GMT
I think there was also a transfer and conversion of several 1972 mk1 stock trains from the Northern to the Victoria Line in the early 90s to which was supplemented by 1962 tube stock.
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Post by towerman on Feb 8, 2023 17:39:44 GMT
There was only about 3 trains of 62TS cascaded from the Central in the 90s all high 17** numbers.
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Post by Tom on Feb 8, 2023 20:16:23 GMT
I think there was also a transfer and conversion of several 1972 mk1 stock trains from the Northern to the Victoria Line in the early 90s to which was supplemented by 1962 tube stock. It was actually earlier, again in 1988. The March 1989 Underground news states 6 units (4x 32xx and 2x 35xx) were transferred. There was an article in Underground news in the last few years about the movement of stock in the 1980s, but I can't seem to find it now! There was only about 3 trains of 62TS cascaded from the Central in the 90s all high 17** numbers. That makes sense as there were only three trains of 1956 stock.
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Post by d7666 on Feb 8, 2023 21:09:49 GMT
I accept it doesn't make much difference to normal operations as long as you never want to cascade a fleet to another line as was done in past times. When was the last time rolling stock was cascaded from one line to another line? Does D78 to Isle Of Wight count ............................................. ?
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Post by towerman on Feb 8, 2023 21:52:07 GMT
I was at Golders Green from 89 to 95,the 56TS was still on the Northern when I left.Think the additional 62Ts trains were to replace the 72mk1TS going to the Bakerloo.
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