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Post by goldenarrow on Sept 24, 2022 18:48:55 GMT
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Post by jimbo on Sept 26, 2022 4:25:09 GMT
It amazes me how progress regularly takes us back, and so it seems that the New Tube for London promises to bring the shortest tube cars, the wheel-less intermediate bridge cars, since the first tube line, the City & South London Railway, which last saw service a century back! There will, of course, be only longitudinal seats as on the C&SLR. And these short cars must, somehow, spread their load on the bogies either side. Just as the gate platforms did on the C&SLR (see Underground News Sept/October 2019). They were not part of the cars but hung between adjacent pairs. Sounds like the new NTfL innovation! C&SLR passenger cars were 32ft (9,754 mm) over the bogie extensions, which shared support of the separate gate platform with the adjoining car, but their body length was only 26ft (7,925 mm). (Underground News Sept/October 2019) So the new Piccadilly bridge cars with a length of 9,978 mm (32ft 9in) are nearly a quarter as long again and contain two pairs of double doorways (new train dimensions shown at 23:40 link) The only way out of the C&SLR cars was via the end central doorway onto the gate platform. And maybe the new car windows are smaller than what we are used to, but they bear no comparison with the original C&SLR 'padded cell' cars! here and here.
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Post by stapler on Sept 26, 2022 9:08:40 GMT
Thanks for that info, Jimbo. True, the CSLR cells were just that, but they *were* padded; has anyone ever sat in them? I daresay the padding was feelable, unlike modern stock with seats reminiscent of a San Remo trolleybus c1970!
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Post by jimbo on Oct 5, 2022 6:37:03 GMT
In August 2021 Siemens began manufacture of the first car, starting with the shortest, the intermediate (wheel-less) car. Presume all cars are basically similar, so this will test assembly methods, appearance, etc in the cheapest way. Other cars in the first train will then follow on from this. Phase one of the line upgrade is forecast to complete in 2027. [TfL Investment Programme Report - Quarter 2 2021/22 (30 May – 21 August 2021)]. On 16 May 2022, Siemens completed the first intermediate car body shell for the new Piccadilly Line trains. The intermediate car has an innovative design, supported between the key motor and driving motor cars. This means fewer bogies and a smoother ride. Work is continuing to finish the key motor cars and begin assembly of the driving motor car. (TfL Commissioner’s report - June 2022) So it's been a while in the making! Looks like they are working outwards from there, finishing with the end driving motor cars ... In September, Siemens started the manufacture and assembly of the key motor car for the first new Piccadilly line train, the first of its kind, following the successful assembly of the first intermediate motor [?] car s back in June. This keeps us on target for the first train to be fully formed and ready to start testing from summer 2023. [TfL Commissioner’s report - October 2022]
Last report (quoted) was only an intermediate bridge car completed, not a motor car! From previous report, a 'key' motor car is not a 'driving motor' car, but an intermediate motor car.
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Post by spsmiler on Oct 5, 2022 12:40:03 GMT
Thanks for that info, Jimbo. True, the CSLR cells were just that, but they *were* padded; has anyone ever sat in them? I daresay the padding was feelable, unlike modern stock with seats reminiscent of a San Remo trolleybus c1970! I need to search my files, I have photos from inside the padded cell at the London Transport Museum, Covent Garden.
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Post by Chris L on Oct 5, 2022 17:18:31 GMT
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Post by stapler on Oct 7, 2022 12:49:57 GMT
Thanks for photo; they were definitely padded, and bet the benches (squabs?) were sprung and stuffed with horsehair, if a trifle upright and ergonomically unsound! Are modern LU seats stuffed with anything at all?
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Post by goldenarrow on Oct 27, 2022 17:03:30 GMT
A glimpse of the first cars of 2024 stock on the assembly line at Siemens’ factory in Vienna, Austria. Click here if tweet fails to load:
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Post by spsmiler on Oct 27, 2022 19:14:06 GMT
Thanks for photo; they were definitely padded, and bet the benches (squabs?) were sprung and stuffed with horsehair, if a trifle upright and ergonomically unsound! Are modern LU seats stuffed with anything at all? I remember seeing inside A stock seats after a vandal had slashed it with a knife - it was well upholstered with springs, padding and more - somewhat like a domestic three seat sofa! Modern trains might have some fire retardant foam plus plenty of discarded flakes of human skin - as well as general dust.
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Post by jimbo on Jan 25, 2023 4:06:29 GMT
"In December, Siemens completed the surface for the Key (intermediate) Motor car body for the first new Piccadilly line train, followed by the shell assembly for the first Direct (driving?) Motor car in January. This keeps us on target for the first train to be fully formed and ready to start testing from summer." [TfL Commissioner’s report - February 2023]
So looks like they are building the three car types which will make one end of the train. Will need to repeat these for the other end of the train, and build the three middle cars, which will be two more bridge cars with a middle intermediate motor car with different equipment to the other two key motor cars.
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Post by 100andthirty on Jan 28, 2023 8:14:07 GMT
"In December, Siemens completed the surface for the Key (intermediate) Motor car body for the first new Piccadilly line train, followed by the shell assembly for the first Direct (driving?) Motor car in January. This keeps us on target for the first train to be fully formed and ready to start testing from summer." [TfL Commissioner’s report - February 2023] So looks like they are building the three car types which will make one end of the train. Will need to repeat these for the other end of the train, and build the three middle cars, which will be two more bridge cars with a middle intermediate motor car with different equipment to the other two key motor cars. Having finally read the Commissioner's report for myself, I really do wonder whether the project team submitted something from a mobile phone with strange auto correct. What on earth does "completed the surface of....." actually mean and what is a "Direct motor car" although Jimbo's guess is probably right. Interestingly, all the cars are motor cars 8n a sense. All the bogie cars have motors (inner bogie only on end cars) and all the bridge cars carry three phase traction converters for the adjacent motor bogies on each end.
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Post by t697 on Jan 28, 2023 11:30:08 GMT
I wondered whether some of it was based on an automated or muddled translation from German. "completed the surface of..." might mean "completed the shell of...".
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Post by 100andthirty on Jan 28, 2023 13:24:02 GMT
It would be surprising if the project team hadn't translated into colloquial English
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Post by ijmad on Jan 28, 2023 16:06:47 GMT
It might be a bad translation from 'Oberflächenfinish' which is a fairly commonly used compound word meaning 'paint surface finish'.
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Post by joshua on Jan 28, 2023 22:54:10 GMT
As part of the New Tube for London will the Watford DC Line get a line speed raise from 45mph to 60mph with ETCS and ATO? Would the Bakerloo section between Queens Park & Elephant & Castle get upgraded with a higher line speed and ETCS with ATO?
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Post by Chris M on Jan 29, 2023 0:26:26 GMT
I would be surprised if the LU-managed part of the Bakerloo line gets any major signalling changes before it gets its extension (or the extension is formally cancelled).
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Post by jimbo on Jan 29, 2023 3:29:49 GMT
This can only be crystal-ball gazing. There is only money for new Piccadilly Line trains, despite a good case for new signalling there. There is no money for new Bakerloo Line trains, although the hope is to continue the build when the Piccadilly order is completed in late 2026. It would be hoped that new signalling for the Bakerloo could continue on from the Piccadilly Line with the same system controlled from the same new signalling centre. At one time the Bakerloo case was linked to the Lewsham extension in the Bakerloo Line Upgrade and Extension (BLUE) project. The extension is delayed indefinitely, but it makes sense to plan both together. As to which signalling system would win the contract could partly depend on when finance becomes available to start the tender process for the Piccadilly Line.
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Post by Chris L on Jan 29, 2023 8:57:21 GMT
As part of the New Tube for London will the Watford DC Line get a line speed raise from 45mph to 60mph with ETCS and ATO? Would the Bakerloo section between Queens Park & Elephant & Castle get upgraded with a higher line speed and ETCS with ATO? The nature of the Bakerloo line in town sections would make speed improvements pointless. .
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Post by spsmiler on Jan 29, 2023 14:18:12 GMT
As part of the New Tube for London will the Watford DC Line get a line speed raise from 45mph to 60mph with ETCS and ATO? Would the Bakerloo section between Queens Park & Elephant & Castle get upgraded with a higher line speed and ETCS with ATO? I too would like to see Bakerloo line trains travelling more quickly. But, as Chris L said, for most of the route through Central London the closely spaced stations would make higher speed unlikely, the best that can be hoped for is faster acceleration / braking of the new trains reducing journey times a little. But, especially north of Queens Park the ability to travel at 60 mph should be a requirement for the new trains. As for signalling systems, it will be interesting to see what happens. Maybe the trains would be equipped with both the LU ATO system used elsewhere on the new trains plus ETCS? Will the trains have space for all the electronic equipment for both systems? Maybe the situation with the Victoria line 2009ts trains when they were running alongside the 1967ts trains will be replicated north of Queens Park? It all remains to be decided upon. Had the train been allowed to travel faster when I filmed the clip below I might have reached the locomotive hauling the freight train!
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Post by jimbo on Jan 30, 2023 18:44:55 GMT
The 2014 feasibility report for the New Tube For London concept envisaged the auto-drive system being overlaid on the Network Rail signalling system, as was envisaged for the Wimbledon and Richmond branches. Economies mean that the District Line will continue to be manually driven on those branches, so perhaps the Bakerloo will be also to Harrow. Driverless operation was not envisaged on the Bakerloo, unlike the other lines promised these new trains.
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Post by melikepie on Jan 30, 2023 21:55:39 GMT
I was just wondering now how a driverless operation would work on the Watford DC Line
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Post by metman on Jan 30, 2023 23:21:14 GMT
I’m not sure it would.
As it’s still Network Rail I can’t see it being allowed.
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Post by ijmad on Jan 31, 2023 0:51:26 GMT
Watford DC is entirely segregated right? Apart from some overlap of the platforms at Euston with WCML services and movements to/from the NLL to get to the depot.
Given it's now entirely operated over by TfL services I could imagine a world where TfL are given sole responsibility for it and effectively operate it as a reverse branch of the Bakerloo (with two different types of trains anyway). If so they could do whatever they thought was most appropriate with the signalling, except into the throat of Euston itself.
I always wondered if the proposed southern extension of the Bakerloo and the new stock would be an opportunity to extend back to Watford.
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Post by ted672 on Jan 31, 2023 10:06:19 GMT
I always wondered if the proposed southern extension of the Bakerloo and the new stock would be an opportunity to extend back to Watford. Somehow I'm not sure the residents of Watford and south thereof would be too keen to give up their light and airy 710s or whatever for a tube-size NTfL for a journey of that length. A bit like someone prefering the Elizabeth Line all the way to Reading instead GWR!
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Post by lukeo on Jan 31, 2023 11:55:04 GMT
I always wondered if the proposed southern extension of the Bakerloo and the new stock would be an opportunity to extend back to Watford. Somehow I'm not sure the residents of Watford and south thereof would be too keen to give up their light and airy 710s or whatever for a tube-size NTfL for a journey of that length. A bit like someone prefering the Elizabeth Line all the way to Reading instead GWR! As much as I love the 710s, I would have preferred them much more had they been given the seating layout of the s8 stock. Instead, they have the annoying tube layout where you’re left staring at the people opposite you for your whole journey. I would happily give them up if a Bakerloo line service was to offer an increased frequency of every 10-12 mins. There have also been a few mornings in recent months where a faulty train has caused a 30 min gap in service which I wouldn’t miss either.
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Post by spsmiler on Jan 31, 2023 13:40:11 GMT
I agree with lukeo regarding the 710 seats - except perhaps for the 5 car units they should all have S8 (but not Class 345) style seating I think that passengers have been asked about their preferences for future services on this route and there was a strong pro-Euston response, as its a faster route to Central London than the Bakerloo line (fewer intermediate stations as well). Some people also wanted to see through trains to Camden Road / Stratford, whilst others still wanted the Bakerloo. One of the biggest issues for the new train fleet is accessibility north of Queens Park, I think that fairly simple solutions are feasible for most stations (what I have in mind actually exists elsewhere in the UK!)* with funding being a far bigger challenge. *Copy what has been done at Rotherham Central, except for Willesden Junction which could look to Queens Park for inspiration.
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Post by Tom on Jan 31, 2023 15:15:18 GMT
Somehow I'm not sure the residents of Watford and south thereof would be too keen to give up their light and airy 710s or whatever for a tube-size NTfL for a journey of that length. A bit like someone prefering the Elizabeth Line all the way to Reading instead GWR! Indeed so, but to use your GWR analogy, why travel from Watford to London on a 710 calling at all stations when you can do it on a much faster LNWR service?
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Post by Tom on Jan 31, 2023 15:45:28 GMT
The 2014 feasibility report for the New Tube For London concept envisaged the auto-drive system being overlaid on the Network Rail signalling system, as was envisaged for the Wimbledon and Richmond branches. Economies mean that the District Line will continue to be manually driven on those branches It wasn't just economies - there was also a significant difference of opinion between NR and LU's supplier as to the level of testing and technical assurance required. The economics became a convenient excuse.
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Post by phil on Jan 31, 2023 22:25:51 GMT
Watford DC is entirely segregated right? Apart from some overlap of the platforms at Euston with WCML services and movements to/from the NLL to get to the depot. Given it's now entirely operated over by TfL services I could imagine a world where TfL are given sole responsibility for it and effectively operate it as a reverse branch of the Bakerloo (with two different types of trains anyway). If so they could do whatever they thought was most appropriate with the signalling, except into the throat of Euston itself. I always wondered if the proposed southern extension of the Bakerloo and the new stock would be an opportunity to extend back to Watford. I think the issue here is not the signalling - it’s more what if something goes wrong and your driverless train won’t move. Let’s imagine a driverless Bakerloo train sits down adjacent to the WCML - and passengers get fed up and ‘self evacuate’ - right onto the WCML! It’s one thing suspending a tube line - quite another bringing the WCML to a halt. If the Bakerloo trains retain a driver then it would be potentially possible to driver the train (slowly if necessary) as far as the next station. (Note I’m assuming ‘driverless’ is not shorthand for completely unstaffed. The latter is even more scary - what if your ‘Driverless’ Bakerloo train derails and is foul of the adjacent WCML fast line…)
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Post by jimbo on Feb 1, 2023 3:14:28 GMT
As stated above, it was never planned to operate trains on the Bakerloo without a driver in the front cab, especially north of Queen's Park. If such operation ever came to the Piccadilly Line, it was required to fence the line from Barons Court to Acton Town to separate it from District Line trains.
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