|
Post by Dstock7080 on Jul 14, 2021 4:04:15 GMT
If they had 9 car trains on the Northern line, I am sure there was no selective door opening, so did doors open on the carriages that were stuck in the tunnels? As mentioned in the quoted article the ‘special’ NDM cars had the ability for the Guard to cut-out the end cars.
|
|
jimbo
Posts: 1,832
Member is Online
|
Post by jimbo on Jul 14, 2021 4:38:41 GMT
Thanks to d7666 for reminding us of earlier 9-car tube trains on the Northern line. These trialed with standard stock, but then ordered 1938TS. I believe these trains were all similar length cars, so probably just over 148m, compared to possible Central line trains of 134.4m replacing current 8-car trains. The former 9-car trains were two cars longer than tunnel platforms. Pre War they seemed to work OK, but were dropped during hostilities and never restarted. One wonders if this would work today with walk-through trains and public address warnings making things easier. They could leave a single car in the tunnel at each end of trains. The June 2017 Underground News review of historic District line timetables revealed that for many years the District ran a few 10 cars trains from East Ham to Whitechapel, where they split for the shorter tunnel platforms. Presuming these cars were of similar size to their replacements, therefore I calculate at around 160m, they were even longer! If they had 9 car trains on the Northern line, I am sure there was no selective door opening, so did doors open on the carriages that were stuck in the tunnels? The guard was not at the end of the train, but always in the platform. He (back then) could cut out the doors on the leading two cars, or the rear two cars. I'm pretty sure the old trains used to feature end-door cut-out switches also. The tunnel walls at such stations were painted white to feel less claustrophobic!
|
|
metman
Global Moderator
5056 05/12/1961-23/04/2012 RIP
Posts: 7,414
|
Post by metman on Jul 17, 2021 13:28:09 GMT
Yes the 1938 stock had the ability to cut out the last set of double doors which was handy at some of the city branch stations which had short platforms- Moorgate comes to mind.
Anyway, let’s get back on topic….
|
|
jimbo
Posts: 1,832
Member is Online
|
Post by jimbo on Jul 25, 2021 22:52:32 GMT
“Baker Bellfield has now been selected to supply the partition walls between the drivers’ cabs and the passenger saloon cars for the … Piccadilly line.” Is this a new method of cab construction? I recall that these trains were originally planned to have no cabs, but then a temporary cab until resignalling allowed the cabs to be removed. link
|
|
jimbo
Posts: 1,832
Member is Online
|
Post by jimbo on Aug 3, 2021 4:56:19 GMT
When Siemens won the contract for the Deep Tube Upgrade fleets, they undertook to build a UK production facility for the contract, although it was expected that the first few trains would be made in Vienna. Construction of the factory is underway, but it is now expected that only the second half of the Piccadilly Line trains order will be built there. I wonder what is involved in moving a production line from Vienna to Goole. Can we expect an interruption in deliveries whilst jigs, gauges, machines etc are moved over. Since Goole is a brand new facility with the latest equipment, can we also expect minor changes in the final product such that there will be a noticable two production runs, as with the 1983TS? One wonders what the future of the Goole factory will be without an order for the balance of the long planned Deep Tube fleets.
|
|
|
Post by 100andthirty on Aug 3, 2021 7:09:45 GMT
When 1983 tube stock was planned it was intended to buy 30 trains. The original order was halved due to falling passenger numbers and poor finances. Then Fair's Fare happened and suddenly more trains were needed. The second batch was a separate order with changes to fix easily fixed aspects of the original trains that were "not good".
The Deep Tube Piccadilly line order is not split and LU will expect all trains to be the same, subject only to the number of inevitable modifications that can be incorporated at build rather than being retrofitted.
As for the changeover of production lines, LU will have a delivery schedule which they will expect to be maintained. Speculating, I would guess that Siemens will start by assembling manufactured bodyshells in Goole, with perhaps bodyshell manufacture coming later, similar to the way the Hitachi plant developed. I am sure that bogies and traction equipment will continue to come from mainland Europe.
Having the factory in Goole is a very visible statement that investment in London is good for the "levelling up" agenda and I'm sure the Mayor, TfL and Siemens will play that card for all it's worth.
|
|
class411
Operations: Normal
Posts: 2,739
|
Post by class411 on Aug 3, 2021 9:14:32 GMT
“Baker Bellfield has now been selected to supply the partition walls between the drivers’ cabs and the passenger saloon cars for the … Piccadilly line.” Is this a new method of cab construction? I recall that these trains were originally planned to have no cabs, but then a temporary cab until resignalling allowed the cabs to be removed. linkAm I interpreting this correctly: The trains are designed for completely driverless operation, but will have a temporary cab constructed so that a driver can drive the train until such time as completely driverless operation is implemented? That sounds as if they are getting way ahead of themselves.
|
|
|
Post by spsmiler on Aug 3, 2021 23:23:37 GMT
“Baker Bellfield has now been selected to supply the partition walls between the drivers’ cabs and the passenger saloon cars for the … Piccadilly line.” Is this a new method of cab construction? I recall that these trains were originally planned to have no cabs, but then a temporary cab until resignalling allowed the cabs to be removed. linkAm I interpreting this correctly: The trains are designed for completely driverless operation, but will have a temporary cab constructed so that a driver can drive the train until such time as completely driverless operation is implemented? That sounds as if they are getting way ahead of themselves. That sounds about right, but not unattended operation - ie: similar to the DLR
|
|
jimbo
Posts: 1,832
Member is Online
|
Post by jimbo on Aug 4, 2021 0:42:54 GMT
The rear walls of current train cabs are covered in equipment, so couldn't be removed easily. Where are they going to put all that stuff in these new trains? They have to start out with the possibility of removing these new partition walls, even if it may not be for another twenty years before everything is ready for that. That will allow front row seats for passengers, as on the DLR!
|
|
|
Post by grumpycat on Aug 30, 2021 7:33:13 GMT
Any new updates with the NTfL builds?
|
|
|
Post by 100andthirty on Aug 31, 2021 9:20:00 GMT
There is an event on 20th September where Dave Hooper and Paul Wright from Siemens will talk to the Institution of Mechanical Engineers about the new trains. It is open to non members but you have to register an account and book. nearyou.imeche.org/eventdetail?id=19290I'm sure a lot will be learned and at these meetings questions are usually taken........but not necessarily answered!
|
|
|
Post by movingmillion on Sept 2, 2021 16:14:03 GMT
Will the stock end up being called NTfL in the end? Or are they going to call it 2023 stock per the old numbering system or similar?
|
|
|
Post by Dstock7080 on Sept 2, 2021 17:20:01 GMT
Will the stock end up being called NTfL in the end? Or are they going to call it 2023 stock per the old numbering system or similar? For the Piccadilly Line trains the designation is 2024 Tube Stock A roadshow is now moving around Piccadilly Line trainstaff depots showcasing trial drivers cab seating, with different cushion and back designs to gauge driver favourites. Confirmation in the posters shown of the “2024TS” or “24TS” designation and that only half the fleet will be built in the UK.
|
|
jimbo
Posts: 1,832
Member is Online
|
Post by jimbo on Sept 2, 2021 20:05:52 GMT
Do we think that the UK built trains will have some sign or label so that we can tell them apart? I presume that they mean 'around' half of the fleet, more or less, rather than a strict 50%.
|
|
Chris M
Global Moderator
Forum Quizmaster
Always happy to receive quiz ideas and pictures by email or PM
Posts: 19,663
|
Post by Chris M on Sept 3, 2021 10:56:38 GMT
Do we think that the UK built trains will have some sign or label so that we can tell them apart? I presume that they mean 'around' half of the fleet, more or less, rather than a strict 50%. Probably you'll just have to look up the train numbers against a list somewhere. If such a list exists it'll be posted on this forum at some point.
|
|
|
Post by grumpycat on Oct 31, 2021 22:33:32 GMT
any updates on the NTfL?
|
|
jimbo
Posts: 1,832
Member is Online
|
Post by jimbo on Oct 31, 2021 23:23:04 GMT
In August 2021 Siemens began manufacture of the first car, starting with the shortest, the intermediate (wheel-less) car. Presume all cars are basically similar, so this will test assembly methods, appearance, etc in the cheapest way. Other cars in the first train will then follow on from this. Phase one of the line upgrade is forecast to complete in 2027. [TfL Investment Programme Report - Quarter 2 2021/22 (30 May – 21 August 2021)].
|
|
|
Post by grumpycat on Nov 4, 2021 23:06:26 GMT
In August 2021 Siemens began manufacture of the first car, starting with the shortest, the intermediate (wheel-less) car. Presume all cars are basically similar, so this will test assembly methods, appearance, etc in the cheapest way. Other cars in the first train will then follow on from this. Phase one of the line upgrade is forecast to complete in 2027. [TfL Investment Programme Report - Quarter 2 2021/22 (30 May – 21 August 2021)]. Any images of the first carriage?
|
|
|
Post by fish7373 on Nov 7, 2021 17:16:12 GMT
Hi the first mock-up of the under frame equipment on the motor car has been done and is at ilford depot
|
|
|
Post by capitalomnibus on Nov 8, 2021 15:58:44 GMT
Hi the first mock-up of the under frame equipment on the motor car has been done and is at ilford depot Shocking that it is being built in Ilford, or has it been transferred there for another reason
|
|
|
Post by Chris L on Nov 8, 2021 18:44:17 GMT
Hi the first mock-up of the under frame equipment on the motor car has been done and is at ilford depot Shocking that it is being built in Ilford, or has it been transferred there for another reason It doesn't say it was built there. Siemens have space within Ilford Depot where the mock up can be shown to interested parties.
|
|
jimbo
Posts: 1,832
Member is Online
|
Post by jimbo on Nov 9, 2021 3:34:12 GMT
Hi the first mock-up of the under frame equipment on the motor car has been done and is at ilford depot How much space does the HVAC take up? There is one of these under each car for heating, ventilation, and air conditioning. The driving motor cars have different under-floor equipment to the other motor cars. See table.
|
|
jimbo
Posts: 1,832
Member is Online
|
Post by jimbo on Nov 21, 2021 19:58:51 GMT
I see that the new Picc 2024TS car numbering system is now revealed in the November Underground News. The first nine-car train is 38001 - 48001, with presumably the car numbers 43xxx and 44xxx eventually appearing in eleven-car Central Line trains. The middle digit of Picc line trains will be 0 or 1, since there may be over 100 trains, which would apply to the Central line also, although the Bakerloo and Waterloo & City would only require a single middle digit to indicate their line. It states that the Piccadilly may see up to 112 trains, although the current order is only 94. Stage 2 of the line upgrade is unfunded, but was formerly reported as re-signal for 33tph with 7 more trains, or 36tph with a further 8 more trains. 112 trains would provide an additional 3 trains over those figures. Does anyone have any idea of the basis of the 112 figure?
This new numbering scheme looks pretty unique to me! Any idea why it starts at 38xxx and runs over to 48xxx at the other end of the train? Was there a reason not to start at 30xxx or 35xxx?
|
|
|
Post by capitalomnibus on Nov 22, 2021 21:10:09 GMT
I see that the new Picc 2024TS car numbering system is now revealed in the November Underground News. The first nine-car train is 38001 - 48001, with presumably the car numbers 43xxx and 44xxx eventually appearing in eleven-car Central Line trains. The middle digit of Picc line trains will be 0 or 1, since there may be over 100 trains, which would apply to the Central line also, although the Bakerloo and Waterloo & City would only require a single middle digit to indicate their line. It states that the Piccadilly may see up to 112 trains, although the current order is only 94. Stage 2 of the line upgrade is unfunded, but was formerly reported as re-signal for 33tph with 7 more trains, or 36tph with a further 8 more trains. 112 trains would provide an additional 3 trains over those figures. Does anyone have any idea of the basis of the 112 figure? This new numbering scheme looks pretty unique to me! Any idea why it starts at 38xxx and runs over to 48xxx at the other end of the train? Was there a reason not to start at 30xxx or 35xxx? What is the length of the carriages. Would they be in total longer than the current Central and Piccadilly fleet, meaning some carriages doors would not open at certain stations. The outer sections on the Central line, some of the stations platforms could end up having a 9 car length on the 92 stock set.
|
|
Tom
Administrator
Signalfel?
Posts: 4,176
|
Post by Tom on Nov 22, 2021 21:35:17 GMT
I understand they will be shorter than the existing cars, with a train of 9 short cars replacing six long cars (remembering that the 1973 is stock is longer than the traditional 52ft tube car).
|
|
jimbo
Posts: 1,832
Member is Online
|
Post by jimbo on Nov 23, 2021 19:03:24 GMT
It seems that the Piccadilly end cars will be about 16 metres long, similar to current Bakerloo or Central Line end cars; the four even-numbered wheel-less cars are only some 10 metres long, suspended between adjacent cars; and twin-bogie cars 3, 5, and 7 will be around 14 metres long, similar to half a DLR unit. The total length of the train will be around 113 metres, some 6 metres longer than current trains, although earlier trains like current Bakerloo Line trains were another half-metre longer still. All doorways will be within the platforms at all stations, although current CCTV screens may obstruct leading doorways at some platforms until removed when the last of current trains are withdrawn. The new trains will feature in-cab CCTV.
|
|
|
Post by capitalomnibus on Nov 23, 2021 23:19:18 GMT
It seems that the Piccadilly end cars will be about 16 metres long, similar to current Bakerloo or Central Line end cars; the four even-numbered wheel-less cars are only some 10 metres long, suspended between adjacent cars; and twin-bogie cars 3, 5, and 7 will be around 14 metres long, similar to half a DLR unit. The total length of the train will be around 113 metres, some 6 metres longer than current trains, although earlier trains like current Bakerloo Line trains were another half-metre longer still. All doorways will be within the platforms at all stations, although current CCTV screens may obstruct leading doorways at some platforms until removed when the last of current trains are withdrawn. The new trains will feature in-cab CCTV. It would look very strange seeing different length carriages on the trains. So accustomed to either all the same length or just end cars with cab ends being different lengths.
|
|
jimbo
Posts: 1,832
Member is Online
|
Post by jimbo on Nov 24, 2021 0:37:28 GMT
This is the first radical redesign of tube stock since the 1938TS put equipment below the floor. Subsequent deliveries have been progressive developments of that basic design. End single doors have been an annoying feature of tube trains since that time.
|
|
|
Post by alpinejohn on Nov 24, 2021 7:50:50 GMT
"It would look very strange seeing different length carriages on the trains. So accustomed to either all the same length or just end cars with cab ends being different lengths." Strange yes - but problematic I am not sure. The new Stadler Class 755 trains in East Anglia seem well liked despite being a complete mix match of coach lengths including a dinky size power pack to confuse the public - where are the doors? The regulars did not take long to work out where to stand. I am not sure single doors at the extremeties of a train are really a major cause of delays in day to day operation - it is mostly people unwilling to move on down inside the car who cause delay.
However I like the new NTFL design as it looks like people will be able to pass through the train even if some people insist on effectively blocking a doorway, also we may eventually be rid of any mid train cabs or even double mid cabs still occasionally found on the Bakerloo. These can be seen to routinely panic visitors who have neatly lined up along the platform length only to find that when the train pulls up they have no way to board the train along a long length of platform.
The sad thing remains that the never ending TFL funding mess means the roll out of NTFL across other lines is now likely to take several decades - and only then once passengers have had to endure progressively unreliable trains for years. The "Misery Line" looks set for a come back.
|
|
|
Post by cudsn15 on Nov 24, 2021 8:27:08 GMT
I think it's a great credit to the maintenance staff that we have such a reliable service - especially considering the age of some fleets and the intensity of service that was ramped up over the last couple of decades.
Of course there are breakdowns of one sort or another - even amongst the newest trains - but I well remember the 90's and the real jeopardy of wondering if you will get to work on time every day or even if a train will turn up at all some days!
Already some cracks are showing - Victoria and Piccadilly line trains are getting dirtier and filthier, Bakerloo seem to be getting more mechanical faults and of course so many carriage lights are now flickering or not working at all on all 3 of these lines (that I use the most) but most especially the Bakerloo - it's quite nice to spend time in tunnels in semi darkness sometimes but know it must be worrying for some who might feel claustrophobic.
It's increasingly common to have a peaceful journey on the piccadilly line now with no DVA announcements...you don't realise how intrusive they are until they are gone or you transfer from the constant overt repetitive nagging on a victoria line to a silent piccadilly.
The next few years I'm sure will see more deterioration sadly but after a decade or so I expect there will suddenly be a pot of money found to spruce things up again before the next cycle of boom and bust happens.
|
|