gantshill
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Post by gantshill on May 4, 2020 16:38:33 GMT
National Rail's "London & the South East Map by Network Rail" is not only hideous, it's bloody useless! The others do have utility, with some patience. I particularly like the Oyster Services and London Tube and Rail maps as they distinguish mainline rail services by terminal. I first became aware of the London & South East railway map when I used to buy the British Rail complete timetable in the early 80s. A pullout contained the main network map on one side and diagrammatic maps of the more complex parts of the BR system on the reverse. For London this felt like a south of London map and a north of London map, with a BR interpretation of the central part of the underground between the two. As at that time, the only passenger connections between the Southern Region and the other regions were at Reading and Richmond, the map felt reasonably balanced. The one included further up this thread is exactly the same style, but now there are two reopened lines: Blackfriars to Kings Cross and Kensington Olympia to Willesden Junction, and also the inclusion of East London line train services and the opening of the high speed channel link, it makes the map look much more complex and not really suitable for our 21st century network. I must apologise for moving this interesting thread away from line colours |
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Post by 35b on May 4, 2020 18:32:00 GMT
National Rail's "London & the South East Map by Network Rail" is not only hideous, it's bloody useless! The others do have utility, with some patience. I particularly like the Oyster Services and London Tube and Rail maps as they distinguish mainline rail services by terminal. The London and South East Map is one I remember in previous incarnations from the All Line Timetable, and finding ok back then. |
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londoner
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Post by londoner on May 4, 2020 23:14:30 GMT
With particular attention to the integrated rail network and underground network in London, I think it is probably very difficult to produce something that is both visually appealing to the majority and also clear to the majority. There are just so many lines that you quickly run out of colours and shades which really work well together.
The map is already made using advanced image software so I presume it is already made in "layers". I wonder whether in the future we will have a digital version where the customer can select/deselect which lines (with each line a different layer) to show on a digital map. The entire rail/tube map would be visible by electing to show all the layers.
You would not be able to avoid the dilemma of figuring out the best combination of all the colours/shades, but you could declutter the map and the map would be tailored specifically for each person's needs. Something similar is already done with Google Maps - you select how you want the map to be shown and can also select various things to show. Another example is the OsmAnd (open source) app. Infact, TfL already do this when showing the engineering works for the weekend on their website. The parts of the network suspended are coloured and the other parts of the network are greyed out.
On the subject of map clutter, I wonder if one reason we have yet to see the Overground and DLR "split" into different parts (on the tube map) is again related to figuring out the best shades of orange and green to use which works for the majority but also how to clearly explain what each shade of orange/green means in an already overcrowded legend.
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Post by Chris L on May 5, 2020 8:10:33 GMT
With particular attention to the integrated rail network and underground network in London, I think it is probably very difficult to produce something that is both visually appealing to the majority and also clear to the majority. There are just so many lines that you quickly run out of colours and shades which really work well together.
The map is already made using advanced image software so I presume it is already made in "layers". I wonder whether in the future we will have a digital version where the customer can select/deselect which lines (with each line a different layer) to show on a digital map. The entire rail/tube map would be visible by electing to show all the layers.
You would not be able to avoid the dilemma of figuring out the best combination of all the colours/shades, but you could declutter the map and the map would be tailored specifically for each person's needs. Something similar is already done with Google Maps - you select how you want the map to be shown and can also select various things to show. Another example is the OsmAnd (open source) app. Infact, TfL already do this when showing the engineering works for the weekend on their website. The parts of the network suspended are coloured and the other parts of the network are greyed out.
On the subject of map clutter, I wonder if one reason we have yet to see the Overground and DLR "split" into different parts (on the tube map) is again related to figuring out the best shades of orange and green to use which works for the majority but also how to clearly explain what each shade of orange/green means in an already overcrowded legend.
The maps are drawn for printing using 4 or more colours to create the finished article. Only black is a solid colour. In 4 colour printing the others are cyan, magenta and yellow. This is the TfL guide to corporate colours. content.tfl.gov.uk/tfl-colour-standards-issue04.pdfNot a simple task to break out an individual line and you would have to include the black layer for the station names and interchange rings. |
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Post by selbiehouse on May 5, 2020 16:19:02 GMT
When I was working in the Publicity Office in the 1980s I managed to obtain some information on line colours and line nomenclature from surviving records. The Traffic Committee Meeting of 5.2.1935 (Minute no.1122) defined the line colours as follows:
District Line Green Piccadilly Line Blue Bakerloo Line Middle brown Morden-Edgware Line Black Central London Line Red Metropolitan Line Purple (carmine shade) Northern City Line Orange
The Traffic Committee Meeting of 11.11.1936 (Minute No.2150) gives the following information on renaming lines:
Metropolitan & District to become Metropolitan - colour green Central London to become Central - colour red Morden-Edgware and Northern City to become Northern - colour black
A memo of 26.2.1937 cancels the instruction that the Metropolitan and District should be known as the Metropolitan. Showing the SSL all in green may have been to do with proposals to revise the pattern of service. I have the Underground Timetable booklet No.2 1939 which shows the during Mon-Sat peak hours there was a though service between Uxbridge and Barking.
After the First World War a series of folding paper maps were issued up until 1928 when the first Stingemore map appeared. The line colours on these paper maps frequently changed. If we take the Stingemore maps as a starting point the colours were:
Bakerloo red Central London orange District green Hampstead & Highgate and C&SLR black Metropolitan purple GN&City purple skeletal
Piccadilly Blue ELR not shown.
The first beck map included the ELR shown as red skeletal. No.2 1934 (No.1 not seen) the Bakerloo brown, central London a redder shade of orange, GN&C becomes Northern City in skeletal black and the ELR is absorbed by the Met. No.2 1937 shows all Sub-surface lines in green and the Northern City has been absorbed by the Northern. No.2 1938 Waterloo & City added. No.1 1940 all lines shown in brown as a war time economy. Must have been meaningless to those unfamiliar with the system. No.2 1941 reverts to colour. No.1 1948 Inner Circle shown in green with a black edges. June 1949 Met and ELR revert to purple, Circle Line yellow. 1961 (8/60) Olympia indicated as exhibition service by broken green line. No.3 1968 Victoria Line in light blue, Piccadilly Line in much darker blue. 1970 (11/69) ELR becomes skeletal purple and Highbury branch in skeletal black. No.1 1973 Bakerloo shown as skeletal brown north of Queens Park. No.1 1976 Highbury branch now shown as a BR line. No.1 1977 North London line added - this was at the insistence of the Greater London Council. No.1 1979 Jubilee Line added in light grey. After this things just start to get out of hand!
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jimbo
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Post by jimbo on May 6, 2020 19:55:46 GMT
….. On the subject of map clutter, I wonder if one reason we have yet to see the Overground and DLR "split" into different parts (on the tube map) is again related to figuring out the best shades of orange and green to use which works for the majority but also how to clearly explain what each shade of orange/green means in an already overcrowded legend.
Of course the DLR has in recent years tried to colour separate its own branch diagram to some extent at content.tfl.gov.uk/dlr-route-map.pdf When the DLR opened it had only two branches, the red line to the north and the green line to the City, not shown on the Tube diagram. I think Beckton was to be blue, but colours were abandoned before it opened. |
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North End
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Post by North End on May 6, 2020 20:03:25 GMT
….. On the subject of map clutter, I wonder if one reason we have yet to see the Overground and DLR "split" into different parts (on the tube map) is again related to figuring out the best shades of orange and green to use which works for the majority but also how to clearly explain what each shade of orange/green means in an already overcrowded legend.
Of course the DLR has in recent years tried to colour separate its own branch diagram to some extent at content.tfl.gov.uk/dlr-route-map.pdf When the DLR opened it had only two branches, the red line to the north and the green line to the City, not shown on the Tube diagram. I think Beckton was to be blue, but colours were abandoned before it opened. The trains did show “BLUE ROUTE” for a time after Beckton opened. Certainly the DLR changed to the blue and silver brand at around then same time. |
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jimbo
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Post by jimbo on May 6, 2020 20:15:22 GMT
Of course the DLR has in recent years tried to colour separate its own branch diagram to some extent at content.tfl.gov.uk/dlr-route-map.pdf When the DLR opened it had only two branches, the red line to the north and the green line to the City, not shown on the Tube diagram. I think Beckton was to be blue, but colours were abandoned before it opened. The trains did show “BLUE ROUTE” for a time after Beckton opened. Certainly the DLR changed to the blue and silver brand at around then same time. How did "the trains show “BLUE ROUTE” for a time"? Do you mean on the line diagrams? I have a feeling they were also shown on line destination indicators, or were they on separate boards? |
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Post by Chris L on May 6, 2020 20:18:51 GMT
Of course the DLR has in recent years tried to colour separate its own branch diagram to some extent at content.tfl.gov.uk/dlr-route-map.pdf When the DLR opened it had only two branches, the red line to the north and the green line to the City, not shown on the Tube diagram. I think Beckton was to be blue, but colours were abandoned before it opened. The trains did show “BLUE ROUTE” for a time after Beckton opened. Certainly the DLR changed to the blue and silver brand at around then same time. When the DLR opened it was owned by the London Docklands Development Corporation. They wanted to keep it distinct from the Underground. Work was done on giving names to the the DLR branches and London Overground lines some years ago. Nothing came of it. |
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North End
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Post by North End on May 6, 2020 20:30:50 GMT
The trains did show “BLUE ROUTE” for a time after Beckton opened. Certainly the DLR changed to the blue and silver brand at around then same time. How did "the trains show “BLUE ROUTE” for a time"? Do you mean on the line diagrams? I have a feeling they were also shown on line destination indicators, or were they on separate boards? The train destination indicators used to alternative, so there would be a few seconds showing “BLUE ROUTE” and a few seasons displaying “BECKTON”. I don’t remember it featuring on any maps, nor on the platform indicators. |
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Post by zbang on May 6, 2020 21:21:41 GMT
Not a simple task to break out an individual line and you would have to include the black layer for the station names and interchange rings.
With modern composition tools, it could be fairly easy. Depends on whether the lines are kept on separate layers and how crossovers and shared connections/stations are resolved (such as Leicester Sq or Bond St). (And the station names aren't in black on the map I was just looking at, they're a medium blue.)
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Post by rapidtransitman on May 6, 2020 23:45:49 GMT
Work was done on giving names to the the DLR branches and London Overground lines some years ago. Nothing came of it. Do you know of any of the proposed names, and if so, what were they? |
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Post by AndrewPSSP on May 7, 2020 9:53:29 GMT
Don't most of the LO lines have names already? e.g. East London line, North London, Watford DC etc...
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on May 7, 2020 11:20:16 GMT
I think the (or at least a) proposal for the London Overground was entirely destination based, e.g. Euston to Watford Line, Richmond to Stratford Line, etc. which were not received with enthusiasm in the wild, partly I suspect due to being unwieldy and partly due to the existence of names like Watford DC, North London Line, etc.
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Post by rapidtransitman on May 7, 2020 12:01:07 GMT
I think the (or at least a) proposal for the London Overground was entirely destination based, e.g. Euston to Watford Line, Richmond to Stratford Line, etc. which were not received with enthusiasm in the wild, partly I suspect due to being unwieldy and partly due to the existence of names like Watford DC, North London Line, etc. I agree with the last two comments - I don't see the problem with the 'traditional' names, ELL, North London Line, Watford DC etc. |
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Post by countryman on May 7, 2020 12:29:49 GMT
I think the (or at least a) proposal for the London Overground was entirely destination based, e.g. Euston to Watford Line, Richmond to Stratford Line, etc. which were not received with enthusiasm in the wild, partly I suspect due to being unwieldy and partly due to the existence of names like Watford DC, North London Line, etc. I agree with the last two comments - I don't see the problem with the 'traditional' names, ELL, North London Line, Watford DC etc. Would the general public understand the Watford DC? I don't suppose they care about the power supply. In this case, perhaps Euston-Watford may be better. |
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Post by Chris M on May 7, 2020 13:23:43 GMT
For the general public "Watford DC" is just a name in the same way that "Watford AB" would be or "Bakerloo" and "c2c" are. The origin of the name doesn't matter.
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Post by Chris L on May 7, 2020 15:27:04 GMT
Not a simple task to break out an individual line and you would have to include the black layer for the station names and interchange rings.
With modern composition tools, it could be fairly easy. Depends on whether the lines are kept on separate layers and how crossovers and shared connections/stations are resolved (such as Leicester Sq or Bond St). (And the station names aren't in black on the map I was just looking at, they're a medium blue.)
The station names are either black or Piccadilly line blue. The layers are separated for 4 (sometimes 6) colour printing so black is only only solid colour. |
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Post by Chris L on May 7, 2020 15:31:01 GMT
Work was done on giving names to the the DLR branches and London Overground lines some years ago. Nothing came of it. Do you know of any of the proposed names, and if so, what were they? As has been mentioned on the thread the traditional names were considered but they are no longer simple. The East London line serves several destinations in South London nowadays. The North London line serves Richmond and Clapham Junction. |
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Post by AndrewPSSP on May 7, 2020 16:13:21 GMT
The Northern line goes down to the most southernmost part of the network, and it certainly doesn't go furthest north. The "East London line" - indeed if you want to be truly pedantic the ELL name wasn't correct as according to KFH [ here] most of the line was actually in SE London, but there you go - and "North London line" names may no longer be entirely accurate, but passengers still recognize them and know the way of the route. Surely that's what matters at the end of the day? |
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Post by zbang on May 7, 2020 17:04:45 GMT
The layers are separated for 4 (sometimes 6) colour printing so black is only only solid colour. Colour separations are done in "pre-press"; actual content changes like dropping a train line or adding text would be done at the much higher content-manipulation level and with different tools. (BTW, I have some maps are seven colour- CMYK, medium brown, light blue, metallic silver.)
All that's neither here nor there, if TfL wanted to print maps showing only certain lines, it would not be difficult; I used to do similar things a couple of times a year. It only requires the inclination and the money.
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Post by Chris L on May 7, 2020 18:17:11 GMT
The layers are separated for 4 (sometimes 6) colour printing so black is only only solid colour. Colour separations are done in "pre-press"; actual content changes like dropping a train line or adding text would be done at the much higher content-manipulation level and with different tools. (BTW, I have some maps are seven colour- CMYK, medium brown, light blue, metallic silver.)
All that's neither here nor there, if TfL wanted to print maps showing only certain lines, it would not be difficult; I used to do similar things a couple of times a year. It only requires the inclination and the money.
I said further up the thread that the maps used to be printed with individual solid colours for each line. It was very, very expensive. I also posted the link to the TfL Colour Manual that gives the CMYK values for each of the line colours. The original question was about Central line red. The current standard is C0 M95 Y100 K0. Another example is the District line green C95 M0 Y100 K27. If you just wanted to create a diagram for a single line you would need to produce a new set of films. |
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Post by zbang on May 7, 2020 19:21:32 GMT
I said further up the thread that the maps used to be printed with individual solid colours for each line. It was very, very expensive. [...] If you just wanted to create a diagram for a single line you would need to produce a new set of films. Was. On an 8-stand web press, you can put any eight colors; granted that running more than 6 would be very uncommon.
[...]
Of course, although the printer might be using computer-to-plate and completely bypassing any actual film (new plates was never a question, but they're relatively cheap). The point is- this is not a difficult process and not uncommon at all, and what's really an editorial change happens far above the platemaking stage. (Oh, and often the plates aren't kept, a new one being made for each press run. Negatives/mats might be kept, but aren't hard to remake either.)
In deference to topic drift (into printing technology), I'll stop now.
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Post by littlejohn on May 8, 2020 10:48:12 GMT
How did "the trains show “BLUE ROUTE” for a time"? Do you mean on the line diagrams? I have a feeling they were also shown on line destination indicators, or were they on separate boards? The train destination indicators used to alternative, so there would be a few seconds showing “BLUE ROUTE” and a few seasons displaying “BECKTON”. I don’t remember it featuring on any maps, nor on the platform indicators. I have managed to disinter my copy of Capital Transport’s ‘Docklands Light Railway Official Handbook 1987’ (which was actually published in 1986). Regarding maps and the line colours it says (p49): ‘although maps from No. 1 onwards were designed for full colour with colour tinting, it was not until Spring 1986 that the No. 6 map was so treated. Future maps will use the green (City) and red (Stratford) line colours’.
It goes on to say ‘….. a number of maps will be needed, including line diagrams on DLR vehicles and DLR station signs (where the line colour and individual routes will predominate ….)’. This seems to suggest an initial plan that stations from Stratford to Poplar – or at least their signage - would be largely red and those from Tower Gateway to Westferry would be largely green. Those from West India Quay to Island Gardens would presumably be both. Although I took the opportunity of an early ride on the DLR soon after it opened I don’t recall any significant colour coding. Did this actually happen?
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jimbo
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Post by jimbo on May 12, 2020 2:23:10 GMT
We know that the Bakerloo is the brown line and the District is always the green line, etc, but have these colours much history? The shades may have changed a little in my long life, but this may have been down to printing technology, or colour fastness. Was there any basis for the original colour allocation to each line, or were they just at random? For example, has the Met line colour any association with the original Met Railway? Or green with the original Met District Railway? Did the Central London Railway use red for publicity? How far do they each date back? From responses it appears that the current line colours were just allocated at random, with no historical basis for any line. In earlier days the Central line could be red one year and yellow another but this was just for map purposes, explained by the map key. More recently the colours have become line identities, appearing on platform friezes, and route maps on platforms and in trains. Any change of line colour today must be expensive. In earlier years there were no platform friezes and other diagrams did not use the line colour. |
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jimbo
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Post by jimbo on May 13, 2020 5:31:03 GMT
The train destination indicators used to alternative, so there would be a few seconds showing “BLUE ROUTE” and a few seasons displaying “BECKTON”. I don’t remember it featuring on any maps, nor on the platform indicators. I have managed to disinter my copy of Capital Transport’s ‘Docklands Light Railway Official Handbook 1987’ (which was actually published in 1986). Regarding maps and the line colours it says (p49): ‘although maps from No. 1 onwards were designed for full colour with colour tinting, it was not until Spring 1986 that the No. 6 map was so treated. Future maps will use the green (City) and red (Stratford) line colours’.
It goes on to say ‘….. a number of maps will be needed, including line diagrams on DLR vehicles and DLR station signs (where the line colour and individual routes will predominate ….)’. This seems to suggest an initial plan that stations from Stratford to Poplar – or at least their signage - would be largely red and those from Tower Gateway to Westferry would be largely green. Those from West India Quay to Island Gardens would presumably be both. Although I took the opportunity of an early ride on the DLR soon after it opened I don’t recall any significant colour coding. Did this actually happen?
I think the part in brackets refers to the signs and not the stations. From what I recall, boarding at Stratford the line diagram sign had both routes shown in appropriate colours, since a change at West India Quay could take you to Tower Gateway (almost Fenchurch Street, for which the bay platform was originally constructed!) I guess all the station diagrams were similar. The platform route diagrams would have been in this form on both lines toward Island Gardens, and back as far as West India Quay. From there I think they would have only shown the individual line colour for remaining stations to the relevant terminal. |
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