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Post by alpinejohn on Jan 1, 2021 8:55:23 GMT
There is also a debate about minimising the potential risk of virus spread and whether this alone now justifies the decision to dump cash payment facilities at tube stations.
Just because "we have always done it this way" does not mean we should carry on doing something forever, if better and potentially safer alternatives are now available.
Whilst ticket offices are no longer manned at tube stations, and ticket office staff are less directly exposed to the virus during any remaining ticket sales activity. However presumably someone still has to go around and visit all the ticket machines which currently take cash, to empty and then bank any coins and notes paid into those machines.
Likewise someone is presumably paid to regularly sanitize all contact surfaces on ticket machine to minimise the risk of ticket machines becoming a potential virus transmission risk. Those activities are not free, and in addition to any security considerations related to moving the cash to wherever it is counted and banked, there is preumably some potential virus transmission route posed by cash handling which if possible TFL should be doing their best to eliminate.
Going further - once tube station machines no longer accept coins/notes it makes little sense for people to bother topping up an Oyster card using a bank card when most bank cards are now NFC enabled cards (Near Field Communication) meaning they can already use that card to travel through the system for the same fare, and of course for the travelling public it reduces their potential exposure to covid by removing any need to go anywhere near ticket machines.
Whilst TFL bean counters are probably quite keen to abandon Oyster entirely, there will be some people who are unable to obtain any form of bank card, but still need to use public transport, so the case for Oyster remains and like it or not the little local shop will probably be happy to cover that need in return for their cut.
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class411
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Post by class411 on Jan 1, 2021 10:21:49 GMT
Whilst TFL bean counters are probably quite keen to abandon Oyster entirely, there will be some people who are unable to obtain any form of bank card, but still need to use public transport, so the case for Oyster remains and like it or not the little local shop will probably be happy to cover that need in return for their cut. Also, unless anything has changed since this was last mentioned, you can't link applicable rail cards to non-oyster non-contact payments. |
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Jan 1, 2021 10:53:34 GMT
Have to explain 40%. If they are working 5 hours they do not need a meal relief and if only 2 days a week then as part timers I would have thought the most productive staff of all. Station staff working 12 hour Sundays needed two meal reliefs so stations were left unmanned. That's what happened in my day. Maybe all changed? A night tube driver needs exactly the same training as a full time driver. However in a given week a full time driver will work typically 36 hours but a night tube driver only 15 hours. This means that for every £1 spent training a driver you get only ~40% the return on your investment for training an night tube driver as you do training a full time one. If you're looking at income then it's even worse as a night tube driver will carry fewer passengers per hour of driving on average. |
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North End
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Post by North End on Jan 1, 2021 11:44:45 GMT
Have to explain 40%. If they are working 5 hours they do not need a meal relief and if only 2 days a week then as part timers I would have thought the most productive staff of all. Station staff working 12 hour Sundays needed two meal reliefs so stations were left unmanned. That's what happened in my day. Maybe all changed? The 40% was a rough way of saying that you are getting 2 days worth of productive work out of a night tube driver, compared to 5 days for a full timer. |
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North End
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Post by North End on Jan 1, 2021 11:46:47 GMT
Have to explain 40%. If they are working 5 hours they do not need a meal relief and if only 2 days a week then as part timers I would have thought the most productive staff of all. Station staff working 12 hour Sundays needed two meal reliefs so stations were left unmanned. That's what happened in my day. Maybe all changed? The 40% was a rough way of saying that you are getting 2 days worth of productive work out of a night tube driver, compared to 5 days for a full timer. Yet the fixed costs of recruiting, training and maintaining a driver remain essentially the same, and perhaps even more importantly (for the time being at least) the training resource used is the same, and this is an area of the business which is going to be under great pressure as the training backlog is immense, and continuing to build. As has been noted by another poster, one can also add relative passenger numbers to that. |
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Post by johnlinford on Jan 1, 2021 13:51:38 GMT
I think there’s a good chance it won’t return, and to be honest if that’s the case it will be one of the few good things to come out of the whole Covid saga. While it may seem like a good thing as it was an operational headache from an internal perspective, as someone who worked random hours in central London, and as someone with friends scattered around East and West London it was an extremely useful service to me as a customer both for commuting and leisure. While it may be slower to return, I expect now it's been shown to be possible as pent-up nightlife desires emerge in the summer I don't see it how the Mayor (whoever it may be) would want to end the service provision. |
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Post by North End on Jan 1, 2021 14:09:39 GMT
I think there’s a good chance it won’t return, and to be honest if that’s the case it will be one of the few good things to come out of the whole Covid saga. While it may seem like a good thing as it was an operational headache from an internal perspective, as someone who worked random hours in central London, and as someone with friends scattered around East and West London it was an extremely useful service to me as a customer both for commuting and leisure. While it may be slower to return, I expect now it's been shown to be possible as pent-up nightlife desires emerge in the summer I don't see it how the Mayor (whoever it may be) would want to end the service provision. I don’t think it will be a case of wanting to end it, more a case that it’s simply going to be sufficiently far down the priority list that it’s not going to prove viable to reinstate it. After all, London managed quite happily for how many years without it? |
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Post by sawb on Jan 1, 2021 15:30:41 GMT
I notice the Bakerloo line is now showing as "planned closure with "no service due to temporary unavailability of control staff". Any idea how long this could last and which lines are closest to the Bakerloo line's situation, in terms of also needing to be suspended?
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Post by spsmiler on Jan 1, 2021 15:44:32 GMT
For a minimal level of service maybe run Queens Park - Baker Street? The rest is almost wholly covered by other services, perhaps requiring a change (or two) of trains plus some extra walking.
However, I suppose that still needs control staff
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Post by bruce on Jan 1, 2021 17:58:02 GMT
There is no crossover at Baker Street, the nearest is Piccadilly Circus.
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Post by goldenarrow on Jan 1, 2021 18:07:14 GMT
There is no crossover at Baker Street, the nearest is Piccadilly Circus. Although if we are being pedantic the nearest functioning crossover south of Paddington is Lambeth North  |
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Jan 1, 2021 19:17:31 GMT
In the days when Bruce and I roamed the Bakerloo line (and he was my boss) Piccadilly circus worked as well as all the others. It's only later on that it gained such a poor reputation.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2021 1:54:58 GMT
There is no crossover at Baker Street, the nearest is Piccadilly Circus. Lovely Clamplocks |
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Post by jimbo on Jan 3, 2021 6:39:43 GMT
The TfL 2021/22 Budget Submission, used for funding negotiations with the Government, states that with the Night Tube and Waterloo & City line suspended from the outset of the virus outbreak to enable LU to concentrate resourcing the 'day tube' (sic) to maintain appropriate service levels, work continues to confirm a date for their restart. But perhaps Government funding will not stretch to provide for that!
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Post by sawb on Jan 3, 2021 12:05:54 GMT
The TfL 2021/22 Budget Submission, used for funding negotiations with the Government, states that with the Night Tube and Waterloo & City line suspended from the outset of the virus outbreak to enable LU to concentrate resourcing the 'day tube' (sic) to maintain appropriate service levels, work continues to confirm a date for their restart. But perhaps Government funding will not stretch to provide for that! I suspect there will be quite a bit of pressure from business on both government and TfL to find a safe way of resuming the Waterloo & City line as soon as possible. I doubt very much there will be the same level of pressure of business for restarting the night tube |
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Post by Chris M on Jan 3, 2021 12:40:45 GMT
The Waterloo and City line will resume when TfL consistently have enough staff to run both it and the Central line.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Jan 3, 2021 17:44:15 GMT
And also when there is the demand. A lot of City jobs (whom I suggest are the vast majority of W&C users) can be done from home these days, whereas the cleaners and retail workers that rely on the Central Line to commute can't exactly do that.
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Post by Chris M on Jan 3, 2021 19:25:36 GMT
Yes, because of things like that when there aren't enough staff to operate both lines the Central line will always take priority.
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hobbayne
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Post by hobbayne on Jan 4, 2021 11:08:57 GMT
The Central Line is still running a pretty much full service utilizing the W&C drivers. Although the trains are very lightly loaded.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jan 10, 2021 11:52:11 GMT
with planned station closures starting to return, i've update this post to record 2020: Planned station closures 2020PLANNED UNDERGROUND STATION CLOSURES 2021 ongoing Heathrow Terminal 4 Tue 5 January Chalk Farm Closed 2230. Mansion House Closed 2230. Wed 6 January Chalk Farm open 0700-2200 daily Mansion House open 0700-2230. Tufnell Park closed from 2300. Thu 7 January Lancaster Gate closed 1830 Tufnell Park open 0700-1900. Fri 8 January Lancaster Gate open 0700. Sat 9 January Chancery Lane open 0700-2230. Sun 10 January Goodge Street closed. |
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Post by spsmiler on Jan 10, 2021 20:03:47 GMT
with planned station closures starting to return, i've update this post to record 2020: Planned station closures 2020PLANNED UNDERGROUND STATION CLOSURES 2021 ongoing Heathrow Terminal 4 Tue 5 January Chalk Farm Closed 2230 Mansion House Closed 2230 Wed 6 January Chalk Farm open 0700-1900 daily Mansion House open 0700-2230 daily Tufnell Park closed from 2300 Thu 7 January Lancaster Gate closed 1830 Tufnell Park open 0700-1900 daily Fri 8 January Lancaster Gate open 0700-? Sat 9 January Chancery Lane open 0700-2230 Sun 10 January Goodge Street closed daily oh dear... but I was wondering if this would come to pass. Nobody in the street where I live has received any post for the past week - our postman is unwell (from the stress, not Covid) and as the sorting office is short of staff it has been storing our mail. |
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Post by Chris L on Jan 10, 2021 20:11:57 GMT
with planned station closures starting to return, i've update this post to record 2020: Planned station closures 2020PLANNED UNDERGROUND STATION CLOSURES 2021 ongoing Heathrow Terminal 4 Tue 5 January Chalk Farm Closed 2230 Mansion House Closed 2230 Wed 6 January Chalk Farm open 0700-1900 daily Mansion House open 0700-2230 daily Tufnell Park closed from 2300 Thu 7 January Lancaster Gate closed 1830 Tufnell Park open 0700-1900 daily Fri 8 January Lancaster Gate open 0700-? Sat 9 January Chancery Lane open 0700-2230 Sun 10 January Goodge Street closed daily Mainly lift stations again. |
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Post by PiccNT on Jan 13, 2021 16:45:04 GMT
There was a working assumption that Night Tube would resume in Spring 2021. We knew some time ago that this wouldn't happen. We have been officially informed now that Night Tube will remain suspended but it remains a temporary suspension. It will return when there is a demand for the service and it can be staffed without affecting the regular day service. A lot of the staff have either been moved permanently to full time or seconded. This means that training of new staff will need to take place prior to the introduction but as in-cab training is suspended, this may take some time.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Jan 14, 2021 1:29:16 GMT
In cab training must be resuming soon as we've got trainees coming to the District line in a couple of weeks time.
I can't see night tube returning until we can resume to in cab training without Covid protocols. There's no way we can train enough people at a sensible rate with Covid testing, slippage due to people isolating, train cancelations (making required moves impossible to complete), need to maintain bubbles with one I/O to one trainee, etc constantly getting in the way.
On average its taking twice as long as a normal to get one person trained, so in cab training with Covid protocols added in is making training new drivers a challenge to say the least.
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Post by jimbo on Jan 14, 2021 2:00:40 GMT
Will I/O be at the head of the queue along with other essential workers for vaccinations, and will that solve the problem?
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jan 14, 2021 8:55:09 GMT
Will I/O be at the head of the queue along with other essential workers for vaccinations, and will that solve the problem? I understand the only essential staff to be vaccinated are care home and health service staff. I’m also under the impression that vaccination only protects from severe illness and possibly death and that vaccinated persons can still contract and pass on the virus. |
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Post by johnlinford on Jan 14, 2021 10:11:12 GMT
My understanding of the vaccine trials is that they just don't know if it stops transmission as the trials were only focusing on preventing serious illness and death as part of getting it out the door so quickly - the ability of it to overwhelm the health services being the issue.
The Times reports this morning that having had the virus once seems to generally stop you getting it again (though for how long remains an unknown, as it does with the vaccines). As the vaccines are rolled out there will be extensive efforts to ascertain if it prevents infection and transmission.
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Post by PiccNT on Jan 14, 2021 11:10:02 GMT
In cab training must be resuming soon as we've got trainees coming to the District line in a couple of weeks time. I can't see night tube returning until we can resume to in cab training without Covid protocols. There's no way we can train enough people at a sensible rate with Covid testing, slippage due to people isolating, train cancelations (making required moves impossible to complete), need to maintain bubbles with one I/O to one trainee, etc constantly getting in the way. On average its taking twice as long as a normal to get one person trained, so in cab training with Covid protocols added in is making training new drivers a challenge to say the least. I totally agree with all of this. We have plenty of vacancies on our roster so getting that filled plus releasing drivers to go to other lines is going to be a challenge and a half. Plus of course the steady flow of action plans takes us away from trainees. The upside to all of this is that SPaD's have reduced quite a bit for various reasons. I believe in-cab training is due to be discussed again any time now. Personally, I was happy with the mitigation put in place and would resume again when we get the green light. As far as Night Tube is concerned, that will most likely be a long way down the road. This and other things may of course change after the Mayoral election. |
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Jan 14, 2021 13:40:28 GMT
Will I/O be at the head of the queue along with other essential workers for vaccinations, and will that solve the problem? I understand the only essential staff to be vaccinated are care home and health service staff. I’m also under the impression that vaccination only protects from severe illness and possibly death and that vaccinated persons can still contract and pass on the virus. Much is yet unknown about the long-term efficacy of the vaccines, currently they are known to stop over 90% of those vaccinated from becoming infected during the three months after it is administered. AIUI those vaccinated in the trials are continuing to be monitored so the longer term efficacy can be established; there is the possibility that booster(s) may be required. Similarly it's not yet known if the vaccines inhibit the ability of a person to infect others. The current plan for vaccination is based on clinical risk not economic risk. Essential retailers are lobbying the government for inclusion in the programme. Personally I think it's correct that the clinically most vulnerable should be vaccinated first along with those who look after them, but I can see the case for key workers to be prioritised within their clinical risk group. (For those unaware in the 'real world' I'm the Community Pharmacist lead for a Primary Care Network in the north west of England) |
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class411
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Post by class411 on Jan 14, 2021 18:25:19 GMT
There's an interesting article in the Gruaniad, today, where the boss of a very large international company explicitly states that his workers will never return to 5d/w commuting routines.
It would seem unlikely that he is an outlier.
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