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Post by PiccNT on May 1, 2020 12:36:38 GMT
At today's ACAS meeting LU management agreed that new timetables will not be introduced until 18 May with... • No cushion work on any duty (travelling to or from one location to another in the main body of the train) • All booking on and off must be at home depots • All meal reliefs must be at home depots with a control on the numbers of train crew in the accommodation at any given time Great. That's my first day back from annual leave. A fair bit will no doubt change between now and then but I'll look forward to signing for my mask upon resumption to duty.
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North End
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Post by North End on May 1, 2020 14:20:13 GMT
But will LU (or anyone) be able to cater for both increased usage AND social distancing - or are they mutually exclusive? No is the short answer. I don’t think that would be possible now, even with the vastly reduced demand. They will need to stagger hours and insist that everybody wears a mask. But keeping two metres apart will be impossible. Yes I agree I think the answer is simply going to be no. There’s no realistic way of enforcing distancing, and people will inevitably pack on trains. The most we may see is some seats marked as out of use and some labels on the floor - no doubt with some raised tempers when people inevitably ignore them. The bigger issue will be whether staff object to this. We’re already seeing ER issues brewing up, the atmosphere in some locations has heavily degenerated over the last couple of weeks partly due to the timetables fiasco but also no doubt simply a function of people growing fatigued of all this. Staff have the legal right to work in a safe environment - thusfar things have run fairly smoothly with little going wrong (low stress on assets, low passenger numbers, and a non-troublesome breed of passenger!), but this isn’t going to continue forever. I dealt with a track fire this week, no problem achieving distancing as on the various trains used there wasn’t anyone in the front car so we were able to spread out, but with a packed train we’d have had to have tipped out and gone through empty. Respecting distancing meant the whole thing took about twice as long to deal with as normal.
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Post by superteacher on May 1, 2020 14:52:44 GMT
No is the short answer. I don’t think that would be possible now, even with the vastly reduced demand. They will need to stagger hours and insist that everybody wears a mask. But keeping two metres apart will be impossible. Yes I agree I think the answer is simply going to be no. There’s no realistic way of enforcing distancing, and people will inevitably pack on trains. The most we may see is some seats marked as out of use and some labels on the floor - no doubt with some raised tempers when people inevitably ignore them. The bigger issue will be whether staff object to this. We’re already seeing ER issues brewing up, the atmosphere in some locations has heavily degenerated over the last couple of weeks partly due to the timetables fiasco but also no doubt simply a function of people growing fatigued of all this. Staff have the legal right to work in a safe environment - thusfar things have run fairly smoothly with little going wrong (low stress on assets, low passenger numbers, and a non-troublesome breed of passenger!), but this isn’t going to continue forever. I dealt with a track fire this week, no problem achieving distancing as on the various trains used there wasn’t anyone in the front car so we were able to spread out, but with a packed train we’d have had to have tipped out and gone through empty. Respecting distancing meant the whole thing took about twice as long to deal with as normal. If they do mark out some seats as "out of use", this might simply lead to more crowding of those who may have to stand. If there was a problem resulting in a service gap, they may close off the platform a lot more readily than they normally would. However, this then pushes the congestion to the ticket hall and if they restrict that, the problem just gets pushed to outside of the station. The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced it just can't be done. I challenge anybody on here to come up with a workable solution.
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Post by MoreToJack on May 1, 2020 15:18:02 GMT
The Bakerloo line have now started partitioning off the front third of the saloon in the driving cars, in a similar way to the DLR. Obviously these trains do not have cab side doors, so it creates a safe space for staff to access the cabs via the internal J door.
On the Met, this week’s service was further revised for Amersham/Chesham trains to run fast ‘all the way’ in both directions, stopping at Wembley Park. This is the first time the Met has offered a sustained, old-school fast all day fast service since such trains were withdrawn in 2011. At weekends the previous service of Amersham trains running to Harrow and Chesham trains running to Watford remains.
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
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Post by North End on May 1, 2020 15:45:12 GMT
Yes I agree I think the answer is simply going to be no. There’s no realistic way of enforcing distancing, and people will inevitably pack on trains. The most we may see is some seats marked as out of use and some labels on the floor - no doubt with some raised tempers when people inevitably ignore them. The bigger issue will be whether staff object to this. We’re already seeing ER issues brewing up, the atmosphere in some locations has heavily degenerated over the last couple of weeks partly due to the timetables fiasco but also no doubt simply a function of people growing fatigued of all this. Staff have the legal right to work in a safe environment - thusfar things have run fairly smoothly with little going wrong (low stress on assets, low passenger numbers, and a non-troublesome breed of passenger!), but this isn’t going to continue forever. I dealt with a track fire this week, no problem achieving distancing as on the various trains used there wasn’t anyone in the front car so we were able to spread out, but with a packed train we’d have had to have tipped out and gone through empty. Respecting distancing meant the whole thing took about twice as long to deal with as normal. If they do mark out some seats as "out of use", this might simply lead to more crowding of those who may have to stand. If there was a problem resulting in a service gap, they may close off the platform a lot more readily than they normally would. However, this then pushes the congestion to the ticket hall and if they restrict that, the problem just gets pushed to outside of the station. The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced it just can't be done. I challenge anybody on here to come up with a workable solution. I agree, any measure taken will break down as soon as passenger numbers exceed the available space. The only thing which will really make a realistic impact is to keep up the focus on essential journeys only, but this has issues too - hard to enforce, and there will be times when people quite simply *need* to travel. So in summary it seems we probably need to expect another outbreak in London.
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Post by jimini on May 1, 2020 17:22:59 GMT
The Bakerloo line have now started partitioning off the front third of the saloon in the driving cars, in a similar way to the DLR. Obviously these trains do not have cab side doors, so it creates a safe space for staff to access the cabs via the internal J door. On the Met, this week’s service was further revised for Amersham/Chesham trains to run fast ‘all the way’ in both directions, stopping at Wembley Park. This is the first time the Met has offered a sustained, old-school fast all day fast service since such trains were withdrawn in 2011. At weekends the previous service of Amersham trains running to Harrow and Chesham trains running to Watford remains. Indeed -- I took a snap of that yesterday on my travels (key worker related). Don't have a site to host the image, but if anyone's interested drop me a PM. What has been noticeable is people's reactions to each other, particularly when I've not been able to avoid peak hours (H&C between Paddington and Kings X at 1830 yesterday for example). One person will sit down (leaving a seat's gap) but the person nearest to them scampers off elsewhere. Some frustrated / borderline angry looks kicking about too. Based on the little I've seen, the rush hour's pushing it in terms of social distancing, even while the lockdown remains in its current state, and I could well imagine tempers fraying if it gets any busier.
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Post by MoreToJack on May 1, 2020 19:26:19 GMT
Further service update, plans are being formulated to reintroduce Circle services from next week. Nothing concrete yet though.
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Post by spsmiler on May 1, 2020 21:35:14 GMT
I saw a report that suggests that to ensure full social distancing train capacity (on the Underground) will go down to 15%.
In Wuhan the number of cars on the roads once people were allowed out of their homes doubled whilst the number of people using the metro halved.
I wonder when the buses will start charging fares again? Or will it matter - because if car usage soars (as in Wuhan) then the buses will be clobbered from traffic congestion so severely that it will be quicker to walk.
I am resigned to a second wave later this year - in the autumn
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Post by spsmiler on May 1, 2020 21:38:07 GMT
The Bakerloo line have now started partitioning off the front third of the saloon in the driving cars, in a similar way to the DLR. Obviously these trains do not have cab side doors, so it creates a safe space for staff to access the cabs via the internal J door. On the Met, this week’s service was further revised for Amersham/Chesham trains to run fast ‘all the way’ in both directions, stopping at Wembley Park. This is the first time the Met has offered a sustained, old-school fast all day fast service since such trains were withdrawn in 2011. At weekends the previous service of Amersham trains running to Harrow and Chesham trains running to Watford remains. Indeed -- I took a snap of that yesterday on my travels (key worker related). Don't have a site to host the image, but if anyone's interested drop me a PM. What has been noticeable is people's reactions to each other, particularly when I've not been able to avoid peak hours (H&C between Paddington and Kings X at 1830 yesterday for example). One person will sit down (leaving a seat's gap) but the person nearest to them scampers off elsewhere. Some frustrated / borderline angry looks kicking about too. Based on the little I've seen, the rush hour's pushing it in terms of social distancing, even while the lockdown remains in its current state, and I could well imagine tempers fraying if it gets any busier. I'm curious to see this but without a place to host the image am not sure how you can make it available here. Are you on Twitter? Flickr?
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Post by jimini on May 2, 2020 1:55:57 GMT
Indeed -- I took a snap of that yesterday on my travels (key worker related). Don't have a site to host the image, but if anyone's interested drop me a PM. What has been noticeable is people's reactions to each other, particularly when I've not been able to avoid peak hours (H&C between Paddington and Kings X at 1830 yesterday for example). One person will sit down (leaving a seat's gap) but the person nearest to them scampers off elsewhere. Some frustrated / borderline angry looks kicking about too. Based on the little I've seen, the rush hour's pushing it in terms of social distancing, even while the lockdown remains in its current state, and I could well imagine tempers fraying if it gets any busier. I'm curious to see this but without a place to host the image am not sure how you can make it available here. Are you on Twitter? Flickr? Just signed up for a Flickr account (spend enough time on it; may as well contribute I guess!). Image available here: flic.kr/p/2iWwQPACheers ~ Jim.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on May 2, 2020 8:34:53 GMT
I assume that's hinged in some way to allow staff in and out?
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Post by goldenarrow on May 2, 2020 9:38:34 GMT
I assume that's hinged in some way to allow staff in and out? Indeed, hinged on the left from the outside. There’s a small line of text under the Bakerloo bar on the right saying “Open this side ->”.
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Post by spsmiler on May 2, 2020 16:17:05 GMT
Thanks - so this has been done on just the DLR and Bakerloo - and no other lines?
I assume that its only at the train ends, by which I mean the extreme ends of trains as they are operating, and not at the inner ends where a 'train unit' couples to another 'train unit'.
As an aside, are any trains on any lines operating in shortened format? ie: 3 car double ended Piccadilly line, four car Bakerloo line, single unit DLR?
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Post by norbitonflyer on May 2, 2020 16:28:52 GMT
Thanks - so this has been done on just the DLR and Bakerloo - and no other lines? Presumably as these are the only stock on which there is no access to the driving position except through the passenger saloon. All the others have separate doors to the cab. (The 1972 stock cab design is the same as that of the 1967 stock, and I understand they had no cab doors to prevent a driver leaving the automatic train (deliberately or otherwise) after starting it.
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Post by superteacher on May 2, 2020 16:44:20 GMT
Thanks - so this has been done on just the DLR and Bakerloo - and no other lines? I assume that its only at the train ends, by which I mean the extreme ends of trains as they are operating, and not at the inner ends where a 'train unit' couples to another 'train unit'. As an aside, are any trains on any lines operating in shortened format? ie: 3 car double ended Piccadilly line, four car Bakerloo line, single unit DLR? I doubt that short formations on the Underground are permitted these days, other than where they normally operate I.e Hainault to Woodford. The DLR is more flexible, but no idea if it’s happening practice.
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Post by MoreToJack on May 2, 2020 17:24:41 GMT
Thanks - so this has been done on just the DLR and Bakerloo - and no other lines? Presumably as these are the only stock on which there is no access to the driving position except through the passenger saloon. All the others have separate doors to the cab. (The 1972 stock cab design is the same as that of the 1967 stock, and I understand they had no cab doors to prevent a driver leaving the automatic train (deliberately or otherwise) after starting it. Correct. It is exactly this - to provide safe access to/from the cab( area)s for drivers. Thanks - so this has been done on just the DLR and Bakerloo - and no other lines? I assume that its only at the train ends, by which I mean the extreme ends of trains as they are operating, and not at the inner ends where a 'train unit' couples to another 'train unit'. As an aside, are any trains on any lines operating in shortened format? ie: 3 car double ended Piccadilly line, four car Bakerloo line, single unit DLR? I doubt that short formations on the Underground are permitted these days, other than where they normally operate I.e Hainault to Woodford. The DLR is more flexible, but no idea if it’s happening practice. No short formations on LUL. Piccadilly line double-ended units are cleared and capable of running singly, but Bakerloo line trains are not - the 'middle' cabs have not been kept up to date with all of the necessary equipment. With the numbers travelling (it is increasing day on day) social distancing would become even more problematic with half sets. I don't believe the DLR are running short units either, whilst LO and TfL Rail have been running double 315s rather than shortening (in the case of LO) off peak. All of this is to maximise social distancing opportunities.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on May 2, 2020 20:49:14 GMT
Indeed, the DLR have even been running three-car trains on the Stratford route I believe (this isn't possible with typical frequencies). As for flexibility, single units are not normally permitted to run in the tunnel to Bank as if one of the motors failed it is not guaranteed that the train would be able to make up the gradient.
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Post by sawb on May 2, 2020 21:00:06 GMT
Further service update, plans are being formulated to reintroduce Circle services from next week. Nothing concrete yet though. Is this planned to be a circle or T-cup resumption, or are details so sketchy we don't even know that yet for definite?
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Post by MoreToJack on May 2, 2020 23:30:30 GMT
Old-style Circle - the easiest to resource. We’re still on locally-created specials, and a circular service is the go-to plan.
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Post by brigham on May 4, 2020 7:58:01 GMT
What's the road traffic situation like in Central London? I expect that with the restriction on 'non-essential' travel, it will be possible for vital workers to drive themselves to work by car, just like we do here in the North-East. (My only view of London traffic is of Abbey Road, St. John's Wood, where traffic is noticeably sparse).
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
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Post by North End on May 4, 2020 8:33:24 GMT
What's the road traffic situation like in Central London? I expect that with the restriction on 'non-essential' travel, it will be possible for vital workers to drive themselves to work by car, just like we do here in the North-East. (My only view of London traffic is of Abbey Road, St. John's Wood, where traffic is noticeably sparse). Central London traffic is still very light. Suburbs I’d say has returned to something approaching normal weekday off-peak levels, but without the spikes caused by things like events so at the moment it’s possible to get pretty consistent journey times. On occasions when I’ve driven in during the daytime I’ve been achieving door to door journey times of about 40 minutes for a journey where I’d normally have to leave a good hour, towards the beginning of the lockdown I was achieving about 35 minutes, which over time has stretched out to a maximum of 42 as traffic has progressively increased. The biggest issue with driving into central London would of course be parking availability.
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Post by countryman on May 4, 2020 9:10:34 GMT
What's the road traffic situation like in Central London? I expect that with the restriction on 'non-essential' travel, it will be possible for vital workers to drive themselves to work by car, just like we do here in the North-East. (My only view of London traffic is of Abbey Road, St. John's Wood, where traffic is noticeably sparse). Central London traffic is still very light. Suburbs I’d say has returned to something approaching normal weekday off-peak levels, but without the spikes caused by things like events so at the moment it’s possible to get pretty consistent journey times. On occasions when I’ve driven in during the daytime I’ve been achieving door to door journey times of about 40 minutes for a journey where I’d normally have to leave a good hour, towards the beginning of the lockdown I was achieving about 35 minutes, which over time has stretched out to a maximum of 42 as traffic has progressively increased. The biggest issue with driving into central London would of course be parking availability. Is the congestion charge still being enforced?
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Post by A60stock on May 4, 2020 9:12:01 GMT
The Bakerloo line have now started partitioning off the front third of the saloon in the driving cars, in a similar way to the DLR. Obviously these trains do not have cab side doors, so it creates a safe space for staff to access the cabs via the internal J door. On the Met, this week’s service was further revised for Amersham/Chesham trains to run fast ‘all the way’ in both directions, stopping at Wembley Park. This is the first time the Met has offered a sustained, old-school fast all day fast service since such trains were withdrawn in 2011. At weekends the previous service of Amersham trains running to Harrow and Chesham trains running to Watford remains. I do feel that the current weekday off peak service is actually adequate as an off peak service generally, (just make the Watford and Uxbridge services 6tph) Hope tfl keep it like this as it seems to make more sense and I never thought harrow to watford needed more than 6tph anyway off peak! If thats too many trains on the fast lines then maybe: Watford to Baker st 4tph All stations Amersham to Baker St 2tph Fast Chesham to Aldgate 2tph All stations/semi fast Uxbridge to Aldgate 8tph All Stations
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Post by superteacher on May 4, 2020 9:13:27 GMT
Central London traffic is still very light. Suburbs I’d say has returned to something approaching normal weekday off-peak levels, but without the spikes caused by things like events so at the moment it’s possible to get pretty consistent journey times. On occasions when I’ve driven in during the daytime I’ve been achieving door to door journey times of about 40 minutes for a journey where I’d normally have to leave a good hour, towards the beginning of the lockdown I was achieving about 35 minutes, which over time has stretched out to a maximum of 42 as traffic has progressively increased. The biggest issue with driving into central London would of course be parking availability. Is the congestion charge still being enforced? No, it’s been suspended.
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Post by aslefshrugged on May 4, 2020 11:04:01 GMT
What's the road traffic situation like in Central London? I expect that with the restriction on 'non-essential' travel, it will be possible for vital workers to drive themselves to work by car, just like we do here in the North-East. (My only view of London traffic is of Abbey Road, St. John's Wood, where traffic is noticeably sparse). From a TfL report a few years ago 1) about half of households in Greater London do not have access to a car 2) car ownership increases with earnings, the more someone earns the greater chance they have of owning a car 3) men (46%) are more likely to own cars than women (34%) From a TUC report last week 4) key workers tend to be on lower incomes, a third earn less than £10 an hour, the average among key workers is £12.26 ph compared to £13.26 ph for non-key workers 5) 60% of key workers are women Ergo... I think I read somewhere there are approx. 1.5m key workers in London, if even a third of them were driving into work that's half a million cars on the streets
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North End
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Post by North End on May 4, 2020 11:07:48 GMT
What's the road traffic situation like in Central London? I expect that with the restriction on 'non-essential' travel, it will be possible for vital workers to drive themselves to work by car, just like we do here in the North-East. (My only view of London traffic is of Abbey Road, St. John's Wood, where traffic is noticeably sparse). From a TfL report a few years ago 1) about half of households in Greater London do not have access to a car 2) car ownership increases with earnings, the more someone earns the greater chance they have of owning a car 3) men (46%) are more likely to own cars than women (34%) From a TUC report last week 4) key workers tend to be on lower incomes, a third earn less than £10 an hour, the average among key workers is £12.26 ph compared to £13.26 ph for non-key workers 5) 60% of key workers are women Ergo... I think I read somewhere there are approx. 1.5m key workers in London, if even a third of them were driving into work that's half a million cars on the streets I presume it’s these sorts of stats which have informed the government’s policy to clear out public transport to make it fully focussed on key workers.
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Post by brigham on May 4, 2020 18:33:28 GMT
So London's streets are not so 'paved with gold' after all.
Up here, the more you earn, the greater CHOICE of car you have.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on May 4, 2020 19:52:06 GMT
In inner London, at least in normal times, you don't need a car and there are limited places to park them if you do have them (and even then this can cost quite a bit).
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Post by jimini on May 4, 2020 20:05:08 GMT
In inner London, at least in normal times, you don't need a car and there are limited places to park them if you do have them (and even then this can cost quite a bit). Indeed -- when I bought my flat in South Woodford, it was an additional £12k for a parking bay!
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Post by gals on May 5, 2020 2:45:06 GMT
Hence if you are travelling on Buses, the Metro or SNCF trains the French Government have made the wearing of masks mandatory with a €135 on the spot fine for anyone who fails to comply, and €500 for a second offence. Judging by how poorly they enforce barrier jumping, smoking on trains, pickpockets, public urination, and begging on the Paris metro, I am not sure it there is any point in fines there...
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