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Post by MoreToJack on Apr 25, 2020 4:40:01 GMT
It sounds that the Met is doing particularly well then, despite the numerous different timetable iterations. They’ve been produced locally by Service Control (the new version still being a special), cascaded out to all parties (including things like Rolling Stock Working, that is what trains start and finish at each depots) and last train numbers not guaranteed meaning that everything can run around with the same train number from start to finish, with the railway passed over to Engineering Hours once last trains are confirmed clear. It’s been working remarkably well - the latest tweak is to take advantage of more train crew becoming available, and is at the moment Monday to Friday only.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Apr 25, 2020 8:43:30 GMT
District changed from Tuesday 21 AM this week, to running
Richmond-High Street (3 trains)
Ealing-Tower Hill (6 trains)
this has continued today
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Post by d7666 on Apr 25, 2020 12:54:39 GMT
Ask a silly question..... the stations that are closed at the moment, are they all / some / none available as emergency detraining and evacuation points ? How is this managed (although obviously if the answer is 'none' it is irrelavent) ? -- Nick Certainly for my area it’s on the handover that all the closed stations are not available for detrainment. Generally if there’s no staff on site then the station will be securely locked up (I’m not going to post details of how this is done), which would preclude use for evacuation even in a quite extreme emergency. But there are nominated permanent evacuation ? intervention ? points (aren't there ??) already existing between some stations (I am talking about normal, all stations open, situation) on some lines. Those are not left insecure and unlocked. But they are not precluded in an extreme emergency, there is a method of managing them. Hence I was wondering if the open but currently closed stations are managed in the same way as the permanent emergency evacuation points, and how this is done. -- Nick |
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Post by Chris L on Apr 25, 2020 13:39:35 GMT
Since the King's Cross fire all folding gates at stations have been fitted with a means of opening them from inside.
Obviously this is intended for emergency escape.
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
Posts: 1,769
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Post by North End on Apr 25, 2020 13:53:20 GMT
Certainly for my area it’s on the handover that all the closed stations are not available for detrainment. Generally if there’s no staff on site then the station will be securely locked up (I’m not going to post details of how this is done), which would preclude use for evacuation even in a quite extreme emergency. But there are nominated permanent evacuation ? intervention ? points (aren't there ??) already existing between some stations (I am talking about normal, all stations open, situation) on some lines. Those are not left insecure and unlocked. But they are not precluded in an extreme emergency, there is a method of managing them. Hence I was wondering if the open but currently closed stations are managed in the same way as the permanent emergency evacuation points, and how this is done. -- Nick Emergency escape shafts (including disused stations) do generally have the ability to open the doors from the inside, albeit with alarms and remote CCTV monitoring - and be in no doubt what would happen if someone opened the doors at one of the airside ones at Heathrow! However the above is intended for very extreme emergency only, to the extent that it’s hard to think of *any* occasion when these locations have been used in that fashion. Normally any detrainment via a disused station would be supervised by local station staff who would go to site first and set everything up. It’s certainly the case that the means of securing stations when no staff are present is such that emergency egress isn’t possible, without staff turning up on site first. Such stations are simply treated as part of the running tunnel as if they weren’t there. Generally the idea is that if no staff are present then there shouldn’t be anyone else present either, even in extreme emergency. |
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Post by d7666 on Apr 25, 2020 14:51:47 GMT
But there are nominated permanent evacuation ? intervention ? points (aren't there ??) already existing between some stations (I am talking about normal, all stations open, situation) on some lines. Those are not left insecure and unlocked. But they are not precluded in an extreme emergency, there is a method of managing them. Hence I was wondering if the open but currently closed stations are managed in the same way as the permanent emergency evacuation points, and how this is done. -- Nick Emergency escape shafts (including disused stations) do generally have the ability to open the doors from the inside, albeit with alarms and remote CCTV monitoring - and be in no doubt what would happen if someone opened the doors at one of the airside ones at Heathrow! However the above is intended for very extreme emergency only, to the extent that it’s hard to think of *any* occasion when these locations have been used in that fashion. Normally any detrainment via a disused station would be supervised by local station staff who would go to site first and set everything up. It’s certainly the case that the means of securing stations when no staff are present is such that emergency egress isn’t possible, without staff turning up on site first. Such stations are simply treated as part of the running tunnel as if they weren’t there. Generally the idea is that if no staff are present then there shouldn’t be anyone else present either, even in extreme emergency. I hear what you say, but, the current situation does not prevent an "extreme emergency" from happening. With bigger gaps between consecutive open stations caused by closed intermediate stations, the need for intermediate evacuation actually increases. If it is staff go from adjacent sites, then so be it, but, that raises further issues with already lower than normal staffing levels in general. Also, whether any shafts have been used in the past is a dubious argument. Indeed, using that argument is the same as "we never had a fire here therefore we don't need to take fire precautions". |
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
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Post by North End on Apr 25, 2020 15:41:30 GMT
Emergency escape shafts (including disused stations) do generally have the ability to open the doors from the inside, albeit with alarms and remote CCTV monitoring - and be in no doubt what would happen if someone opened the doors at one of the airside ones at Heathrow! However the above is intended for very extreme emergency only, to the extent that it’s hard to think of *any* occasion when these locations have been used in that fashion. Normally any detrainment via a disused station would be supervised by local station staff who would go to site first and set everything up. It’s certainly the case that the means of securing stations when no staff are present is such that emergency egress isn’t possible, without staff turning up on site first. Such stations are simply treated as part of the running tunnel as if they weren’t there. Generally the idea is that if no staff are present then there shouldn’t be anyone else present either, even in extreme emergency. I hear what you say, but, the current situation does not prevent an "extreme emergency" from happening. With bigger gaps between consecutive open stations caused by closed intermediate stations, the need for intermediate evacuation actually increases. If it is staff go from adjacent sites, then so be it, but, that raises further issues with already lower than normal staffing levels in general. Also, whether any shafts have been used in the past is a dubious argument. Indeed, using that argument is the same as "we never had a fire here therefore we don't need to take fire precautions". I’m not attempting to defend or justify the position, just state things as they are. Having said that, I can see that there’s a need for security, especially bearing in mind tunnel stations are set up on the basis that they would never normally be completely unstaffed except over Christmas Day. Perhaps with hindsight there’s an argument to say that there should be a proper engineered arrangement that provides security whilst at the same time maintaining an escape route out for use during an extreme emergency, but at this moment this doesn’t exist. However, on the point about disused station egress, if we take something like Angel to Old Street, the fact that there’s theoretically an escape facility available at City Road is simply historical coincidence. The longer section from Manor House to Turnpike Lane, for example, has no facilities at all. Neither section would be designed in this way if being constructed *now*, but the line has been taken that standards are not retrospectively applied. Unfortunately the blunt reality of this is that anyone uncomfortable with this situation probably needs to find another way to travel, as it’s not going to change readily! |
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Tom
Administrator
Signalfel?
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Post by Tom on Apr 25, 2020 17:42:30 GMT
I was wondering something similar about rusty-rail moves including the Watford north curve and Overground trips to Battersea Park etc.. On the Underground it's being managed locally by service control. Each line has been asked to go and identify any that haven't been used for >3 days (passenger moves) or seven days (shunt moves), and the relevant track circuits are then tested by Signalling Staff on nights prior to the first move over them. When the first move occurs it is watched by Technical Staff to confirm correct operation of the signalling. I believe the biggest singular issue for re-opening is the Waterloo & City kind, and assurance of the signalling system. Nothing that’s insurmountable (I believe it was being discussed from the same time as plans were made to close it). Indeed it was discussed at the time the line closed; it's being managed by running a rusty rail train every few days. |
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Post by spsmiler on Apr 25, 2020 19:03:36 GMT
Social distancing sign in the subterranean passages that also serve as station accesses below Gants Hill roundabout  |
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Post by spsmiler on Apr 25, 2020 19:11:35 GMT
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Post by superteacher on Apr 25, 2020 21:33:35 GMT
The grammar in that last one is shocking!
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Tom
Administrator
Signalfel?
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Post by Tom on Apr 26, 2020 22:06:30 GMT
That's the sort of thing I would be tempted to attack with a red pen.
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Apr 26, 2020 23:14:20 GMT
That's the sort of thing I would be tempted to attack with a red pen.  |
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Post by MoreToJack on Apr 26, 2020 23:18:21 GMT
Met line timetable to change again from Monday. Watford and Uxbridge services to remain the same, but Amersham and Chesham trains will now be extended through to Baker Street, semi-fast (calling all stations BST-HAR, fast to MPK, then all stations), all day. Two additional trains are also available to run as required in both peaks between Aldgate and Harrow only. I believe amendments are also planned for the C&H, but I have not been advised of these yet. Last minute tweak to the Met service, the Amersham/Chesham services will now run fast, calling at Wembley Park, both ways all day. |
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Post by goldenarrow on Apr 30, 2020 12:03:27 GMT
Tom , To answer your Heathrow question, Rail and Tube stations at T4 to shut after close of traffic on 8 May owing to terminal closure. Both TfL Rail West and Picc line running direct to T5 from 9 May until further notice. T4's closure was deferred several times since HAL reallocated T4 for charter flights for various industries flying in seasonal migrant labour and thus required a more comprehensive staffing level across the board.
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Post by PiccNT on Apr 30, 2020 13:31:01 GMT
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-52481522BBC have inside info! The fact that the lockdown will ease but social distancing probably won't, we'll need to significantly ramp up services for the increased demand. Can't see this being implemented easily with the RMT intending to ballot for industrial action, great timing, and the to'ing and fro'ing of duties between local management and local reps. Nothing in London Underground it seems is easy.
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Post by Chris L on Apr 30, 2020 13:35:57 GMT
Tom , To answer your Heathrow question, Rail and Tube stations at T4 to shut after close of traffic on 8 May owing to terminal closure. Both TfL Rail West and Picc line running direct to T5 from 9 May until further notice. T4's closure was deferred several times since HAL reallocated T4 for charter flights for various industries flying in seasonal migrant labour and thus required a more comprehensive staffing level across the board. I wonder whether they will have to run a parliamentary train. |
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Post by superteacher on Apr 30, 2020 13:54:24 GMT
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-52481522BBC have inside info! The fact that the lockdown will ease but social distancing probably won't, we'll need to significantly ramp up services for the increased demand. Can't see this being implemented easily with the RMT intending to ballot for industrial action, great timing, and the to'ing and fro'ing of duties between local management and local reps. Nothing in London Underground it seems is easy. Even with not everybody going back and staggering the hours of those that do, it will not be possible to have enough capacity whilst maintaining social distancing. Anyone who thinks it’s possible is just living in cloud-cuckoo land. |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Apr 30, 2020 14:35:55 GMT
I wonder whether they will have to run a parliamentary train. I understand that Piccadilly trains may still traverse the loop, after detraining at Hatton Cross, to offer the usual driver facilities at T4 |
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Post by sunnyday on Apr 30, 2020 15:21:22 GMT
TfL Rail East are planning a near normal weekday service from Monday. Final details are being determined, mainly concerning the social distancing of drivers during booking on and breaks.
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Post by sawb on Apr 30, 2020 16:21:05 GMT
TfL Rail East are planning a near normal weekday service from Monday. Final details are being determined, mainly concerning the social distancing of drivers during booking on and breaks. Presumably this re-introduction of services won't be publicised for some time yet and will be a few weeks at least before it's advertised? |
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Post by sunnyday on Apr 30, 2020 16:45:40 GMT
I would imagine they will continue to say the 10 minute service continues to run with additional trains during the peak. Looking at the loadings last week, there were more people travelling, but I am not sure they need to run an almost full weekday service at this stage. I believe the rational is that they want to be ready should there be a sudden upsurge in demand.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Apr 30, 2020 17:01:13 GMT
I wonder whether they will have to run a parliamentary train. There are several National Rail passenger lines on which no service is running at present. As far as I am aware no formal procedure is required as the closure is not intended to be permanent. An exception is the north to east spur between Dalmeny and Winchburgh in Edinburgh, which until the lockdown carried the once-each-way-daily Fife coast to Glasgow services. As these services do not appear in the published May 2020 timetable we may assume these have run for the last time. There is however a mystery about this closure, as I cannot find a published closure notice, and if there is a parliamentary service in the new timetable it is well hidden. (Sorry, going slightly off topic) |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Apr 30, 2020 19:32:21 GMT
At today's ACAS meeting LU management agreed that new timetables will not be introduced until 18 May with...
• No cushion work on any duty (travelling to or from one location to another in the main body of the train)
• All booking on and off must be at home depots
• All meal reliefs must be at home depots with a control on the numbers of train crew in the accommodation at any given time
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Post by sawb on May 1, 2020 7:30:50 GMT
At today's ACAS meeting LU management agreed that new timetables will not be introduced until 18 May with... • No cushion work on any duty (travelling to or from one location to another in the main body of the train) • All booking on and off must be at home depots • All meal reliefs must be at home depots with a control on the numbers of train crew in the accommodation at any given time That's presumably highly likely to change again, given that it would seem National Rail operators have been told to prepare for resumption of normal timetables around 18th May? If the underground is still on greatly reduced frequencies, but National Rail is back to a normal weekday timetable, that's unlikely to end well...... |
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
Posts: 1,769
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Post by North End on May 1, 2020 7:37:52 GMT
At today's ACAS meeting LU management agreed that new timetables will not be introduced until 18 May with... • No cushion work on any duty (travelling to or from one location to another in the main body of the train) • All booking on and off must be at home depots • All meal reliefs must be at home depots with a control on the numbers of train crew in the accommodation at any given time That's presumably highly likely to change again, given that it would seem National Rail operators have been told to prepare for resumption of normal timetables around 18th May? If the underground is still on greatly reduced frequencies, but National Rail is back to a normal weekday timetable, that's unlikely to end well...... The problem is that running the normal weekday timetable is going to prove pretty much impossible, as I suspect will be the case on most of the mainline network too. It doesn't bode well that LU have made a total mess with the temporary timetables to date, and that should have been the easy bit - devising something to cater for the minimal lockdown usage. If LU couldn't get that part right, then one wonders how things will fare when they need to deliver something to cater for increased usage *and* social distancing (for both passengers and staff). We're still going to have reduced staff availability, both in terms of drivers, other operational staff and some important support functions. For some time to come it's going to be an operation under heavy stress. |
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Post by littlejohn on May 1, 2020 10:27:25 GMT
But will LU (or anyone) be able to cater for both increased usage AND social distancing - or are they mutually exclusive?
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Post by chris11256 on May 1, 2020 10:54:36 GMT
But will LU (or anyone) be able to cater for both increased usage AND social distancing - or are they mutually exclusive? This is where I can see the benefit of the Scotland mask advice. Not required outside generally, but if you can't socially distance(public transport) then a mask is required. |
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Post by superteacher on May 1, 2020 11:01:37 GMT
But will LU (or anyone) be able to cater for both increased usage AND social distancing - or are they mutually exclusive? No is the short answer. I don’t think that would be possible now, even with the vastly reduced demand. They will need to stagger hours and insist that everybody wears a mask. But keeping two metres apart will be impossible. |
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Post by alpinejohn on May 1, 2020 11:19:30 GMT
"This is where I can see the benefit of the Scotland mask advice. Not required outside generally, but if you can't socially distance(public transport) then a mask is required..."
Totally agree indeed a similar conclusion has been reached over in France where they have announced details of how they plan to progressively release the lockdown from 4 May. Social distancing alone will not provide credible protection once travelling numbers return to anywhere near normal levels. Hence if you are travelling on Buses, the Metro or SNCF trains the French Government have made the wearing of masks mandatory with a €135 on the spot fine for anyone who fails to comply, and €500 for a second offence.
Whilst this virus is still present, most people will understand and comply, but there are always some who feel it does not (should not) apply to them - hence the French Government has chosen to introduce a law making the use of masks on all forms of public transport mandatory for the foreseeable future. Which probably means until someone comes up with a reliable vaccine or effective medicine for anyone who falls ill.
As vaccines and medicines still seem many months off, I wonder if behind the scenes transport operators are pressing Government to take a similar approach here, as requiring masks seems the only short term fix which would allow travellers to return to something approaching normality without generating a second wave of the illness.
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