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Post by Deep Level on Feb 29, 2020 15:08:27 GMT
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Post by MoreToJack on Feb 29, 2020 15:31:45 GMT
This is not a particularly good development, and shows how desperate TfL are for cash at the moment.
Advertising is part and parcel of the Tube network - and has existed since the earliest days, before anyone suggests that it’s a new phenomenon - but there’s always been ‘golden rules’ which are much of what sets TfL apart from other operators as far as usability goes.
Whilst there have been previous small-scale advertising runs like this it’s generally been limited to one gateline, but even so has caused confusion amongst both regular and occasional users. The best part of two decades has been spent building familiarity and understanding with the yellow symbol, not just on the Tube but on every other mode that accepts Oyster (and there’s nothing to suggest that this deal applies to those, such as buses and NR TOCs).
You don’t mess with the key user interactions.
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class411
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Post by class411 on Feb 29, 2020 18:12:22 GMT
The only small consolation is that it's not being branded with apple pay.
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Post by MoreToJack on Feb 29, 2020 20:33:42 GMT
Not really. Aside from the fact it’s actually a more secure payment gateway, it comes back to the basic question of usability. This will lead to confusion over whether or not ApplePay is valid.
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Post by stapler on Feb 29, 2020 22:02:14 GMT
Anyone know how much commission on the various contactless devices TFL have to pay?
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Post by Tomcakes on Mar 1, 2020 10:46:03 GMT
Whilst it sounds a lot, is 2 million really that much when the labour of swapping the stickers, the printing, the organising etc is taken into account?
I saw these at Kings Cross last week and, despite knowing about this, I was taken aback.
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Post by superteacher on Mar 1, 2020 10:54:00 GMT
I’m surprised this doesn’t contravene certain DDA rules regarding visibility.
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Post by zbang on Mar 1, 2020 17:50:47 GMT
Not really. Aside from the fact it’s actually a more secure payment gateway, it comes back to the basic question of usability. This will lead to confusion over whether or not ApplePay is valid. ...and the assumption that google-pay is now the processor (my first thought).
(The change-over and -back costs are usually figured into the contracts for things like this, don't know if those are pre-paid or not.)
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Post by spsmiler on Mar 1, 2020 23:52:06 GMT
Hmm, my first impressions after reading the first message in this thread were that £2m did not sound like enough and that some passengers will be confused.
"So why did you not pay your fare?"
"That said G pay and I'm using Apple Pay, so I assumed it was not for me - and I could not find an Apple card reader".
My next thought turns to the yellow Oyster readers at mainline / DLR stations, tram stops and on buses. Are these all included too?
Then there are stations like Wimbledon, Moorgate, Ealing Broadway etc., where there are card readers on (or near) platforms inside the gate line? Does it depend on whose trains serve that platform?
Oh and what about the pink readers? From what is being said I assume that they are not included in this deal... so, will Apple (or another Google rival) try to nab these?
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Post by bassmike on Mar 2, 2020 3:20:27 GMT
Try Apple pie.
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Post by zbang on Mar 2, 2020 4:37:13 GMT
To pay the fare or to read my touch card? Doubt either will work. |
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Post by stapler on Mar 2, 2020 21:49:31 GMT
It's difficult enough already finding the Oyster readers when interchanging at Stratford, even WITH the bright yellow decals. What's it going to be like with these bland stickers, and their jumbled graphics?
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Post by spsmiler on Mar 2, 2020 23:32:37 GMT
To pay the fare or to read my touch card? Doubt either will work. Maybe its use will be in the same context as eating humble pie after having been ticket checked and found without a valid proof of payment. As we know, this does not always happen at the time of ticket checking, as it also depends on the results of the overnight reconciliation when TfL's computers also check all travel with all payment types which were used when touching in / out during the day. |
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Post by brigham on Mar 3, 2020 8:41:01 GMT
Advertising needs to be kept away from essential parts of the system. This is a step too far.
I remember a TV series in the Thatcher years, set in the near future. A van said 'Police plc.', with a notice below 'To advertise in this space, call ...'.
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Post by brooklynbound on Mar 3, 2020 9:09:42 GMT
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Post by Tomcakes on Mar 5, 2020 22:13:01 GMT
I had cause to telephone the Oystercard "help"desk earlier in the week. They told me, having completed a refund transaction, that I must touch my card on "any yellow Oystercard reader". I asked if this included the white ones - "there is no such thing as a white Oyster reader" said the Operator. It is pleasing to know that TfL internal communications are efficient.
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Post by crusty54 on Mar 6, 2020 8:53:56 GMT
Advertising needs to be kept away from essential parts of the system. This is a step too far. I remember a TV series in the Thatcher years, set in the near future. A van said 'Police plc.', with a notice below 'To advertise in this space, call ...'. Customer information and advertising should be kept apart. At Walthamstow Central and Jubilee line stations in Brent some of the platform roundels have vinyls which cover the station name. No longer fit for purpose. |
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Post by jsilver1995 on Mar 6, 2020 10:17:38 GMT
Will this not be more confusing for foreign visitors as well? I'm sure I have seen people looking at the ticket line while holding an oyster at Canary Wharf (if my memory serves me correctly) then turning back to their group of friends and getting phones out to use.
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Post by MoreToJack on Mar 6, 2020 15:54:19 GMT
I mean that is exactly what TfL want - more people to use contactless. Quite simply, it’s cheaper!
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class411
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Post by class411 on Mar 6, 2020 16:41:37 GMT
I mean that is exactly what TfL want - more people to use contactless. Quite simply, it’s cheaper! Surely there are very few people not using contactless, nowadays. |
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Post by Chris M on Mar 6, 2020 18:50:50 GMT
The latest figures seem to be from April 2018, when 50% of all "tube and rail" pay-as-you-go journeys were made using contactless, 10% higher than July 2017. The April 2018 figure on buses and trams was 45% contactless. I haven't been able to quickly find what proportion of journeys are pay are you go, but PAYG journeys made using contactless contributed about a third of fares revenue for London Underground. 50% of contactless PAYG journeys will not equal 50% of PAYG fares though as there are various discounts that can be applied to oyster cards that cannot be applied to contactless cards and weekly capping is not available on Oyster. There were about 17 million contactless PAYG journeys a week "across London" in April 2018 but it's not clear whether that includes buses and trams.
If we assume a continued growth rate of 10% every 9 months (my gut feeling is that it's more likely to be an S curve than linear), that would mean the figure would be about 75% as of January 2020. Even Oyster is only 25% of the 17 million, that's still 4.25 million journeys which isn't "very few" - especially as none of these figures include any consideration of season tickets.
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class411
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Post by class411 on Mar 7, 2020 9:14:34 GMT
I made the mistake of thinking that 'contactless' included Oyster.
This seems sensible since, on the reader, you use it in exactly the same was as a contactless card. Data is transferred with no electrical contact.
Yet another instance of the railway industry using words in ways out of kilter with the rest of the population.
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Post by crusty54 on Mar 7, 2020 9:32:52 GMT
I made the mistake of thinking that 'contactless' included Oyster. This seems sensible since, on the reader, you use it in exactly the same was as a contactless card. Data is transferred with no electrical contact. Yet another instance of the railway industry using words in ways out of kilter with the rest of the population. I don't think so. In the early days it was anticipated that Oyster would become a payment card. This never happened and the banks started introducing contactless. The operators have always promoted the use of Oyster and Contactless as separate. |
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class411
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Post by class411 on Mar 7, 2020 10:01:11 GMT
I made the mistake of thinking that 'contactless' included Oyster. This seems sensible since, on the reader, you use it in exactly the same was as a contactless card. Data is transferred with no electrical contact. Yet another instance of the railway industry using words in ways out of kilter with the rest of the population. I don't think so. Sorry, what is it that you don't think is so? I appreciate that, I'm just saying that it's a bit daft to use a word to differentiate two systems when they both contact (or not) in exactly the same way. If you showed someone with no prior knowledge people using the gateline, and asked them which were using contactless and which weren't, I guarantee that they would say people using oyster, credit cards, and phones were using contactless and those using paper tickets weren't. It's a small thing but it is bad practice to use terminology that could definitely confuse anyone who hasn't had it explained to them. |
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Post by rincew1nd on Mar 7, 2020 10:21:13 GMT
There is a retail element to my job, I am often asked "do you take card?" often followed by "is it contactless?".
Whilst on a pedantic point you may be corrected, common usage is quite the opposite. Just like train station.
Edit to add: whilst the Contactless system is contact-less - by far the vast majority of customers tap their card/device on the reader.
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Post by crusty54 on Mar 7, 2020 12:23:59 GMT
Sorry, what is it that you don't think is so? I appreciate that, I'm just saying that it's a bit daft to use a word to differentiate two systems when they both contact (or not) in exactly the same way. If you showed someone with no prior knowledge people using the gateline, and asked them which were using contactless and which weren't, I guarantee that they would say people using oyster, credit cards, and phones were using contactless and those using paper tickets weren't. It's a small thing but it is bad practice to use terminology that could definitely confuse anyone who hasn't had it explained to them. Contactless did not exist when Oyster was created. The concept required a lot of effort to convey to passengers to convince them that it was secure and worked. It became a brand. Would you expect Coca Cola to promote drinking unbranded cola? I think not. Contactless has become a major success but the original amount was not enough for a weekly Travelcard. Oyster is still popular and people prefer to use a card for claiming expenses. Running both together works. |
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class411
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Post by class411 on Mar 7, 2020 14:29:21 GMT
There is a retail element to my job, I am often asked "do you take card?" often followed by "is it contactless?". Which rather proves my point. They are clearly using the distinction that if you insert or swipe, it's not contactless, otherwise it is. I suspect that what people are thinking is that if you insert or swipe, the card is making contact with the reading mechanism. If you tap it, it's just touching a bit of yellow plastic. That's just speculation, though. |
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Post by brigham on Mar 7, 2020 15:00:39 GMT
So is 'Contactless' a brand?
I thought it was a no-PIN-required card payment system.
What is actually 'contactless' about it? It still contacts the Bank for authorisation.
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Post by rincew1nd on Mar 7, 2020 15:14:24 GMT
There is no contact required between your payment card and the merchant's terminal (unlike "chip & pin" "chip & sign" or "swipe & sign") Here is a summary: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contactless_paymentGiven the increasing prevalence of Covid-19, using contactless in a shop could save your life. |
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Post by miff on Mar 7, 2020 22:59:08 GMT
I’m not sure what the ‘contactless or not’ issue is here. Clearly Oyster was a pioneer but it is now just one type of contactless prepayment card. Most credit & debit cards now offer contactless payment. Google Pay and Apple Pay are contactless wallets (you can load several ‘cards’ or payment accounts into your wallet). I agree giving one contactless provider exclusive branding on what is supposed to be a universal contactless receiver is potentially confusing.
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