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Post by ijmad on Oct 15, 2019 16:47:36 GMT
Outcome of the last consultation has been published: tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2018/september/further-plans-for-bakerloo-line-extension-revealed-following-public-consultationSummarising: - New tunnel alignment between Lambeth North & Elephant and Castle
- New alignment points in the right direction down Old Kent Road
- New Elephant and Castle station integrated with Northern Line
- Existing Elephant and Castle will be closed for a shorter time while tunnelling is underway
- No station at Bricklayers Arms (was mooted for a while)
- Two stations on Old Kent Road and at NXG and Lewisham as expected, roughly where TfL proposed before
- Extension to Lewisham to be delivered by 2029
- Definite preference for taking over the Hayes Line and Beckenham Curve to Beckenham Junction as the phase beyond Lewisham
All seems pretty exciting to me. Not sure if folks in Ladywell will be very impressed but the Bakerloo takeover may be necessary for the 'greater good'. |
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Post by AndrewPSSP on Oct 15, 2019 17:00:24 GMT
Will the current Bakerloo line building just become a ventilation shaft then?
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Post by Chris M on Oct 15, 2019 17:25:07 GMT
What happens to the current station isn't mentioned anywhere in the consultation that I've seen.
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Post by ijmad on Oct 15, 2019 17:50:55 GMT
Will the current Bakerloo line building just become a ventilation shaft then? Perhaps a slightly awkward (long walk) secondary entrance |
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Post by jimbo on Oct 15, 2019 19:22:58 GMT
"Leaves a section of potentially redundant tunnel on the Bakerloo line, although we have not yet ascertained whether there may be a use for it to support operation of the Bakerloo line, or an alternative use."
The new line will likely connect with the existing by step-plate junctions as recently constructed on the Kennington loop. This enables works trains to enter the extension whilst the current service is maintained. I think it almost certain that the current layout will be retained for emergency reversing and stabling, as Charing Cross remains on the Jubilee line. The Bakerloo is short of stabling space, and will be until it reaches the Hayes line. Reversing capacity is expensive to provide. This would also provide a Yerkes style station for filming in place of Aldwych when the rail connection there is lost.
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Post by Chris M on Oct 15, 2019 19:56:25 GMT
The existing section of line will remain accessible to trains at least as long as London Road Depot is in operation as the junction will be north of there, and there will likely be no point spending money changing the access to the depot.
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Post by jimbo on Oct 15, 2019 20:08:51 GMT
The existing section of line will remain accessible to trains at least as long as London Road Depot is in operation as the junction will be north of there, and there will likely be no point spending money changing the access to the depot. London Road depot link is north of Lambeth North station. New line starts south of there. |
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Post by Chris M on Oct 15, 2019 20:27:19 GMT
Sorry, my mistake.
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Post by superteacher on Oct 15, 2019 20:53:57 GMT
The extension has been talked about in one form or another since the 1940s. Even by U.K. standards, this has been a slow burner!
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Post by londoner on Oct 15, 2019 21:16:59 GMT
Not sure about anyone else, but talk of extensions on London underground lines always gets the inner kid in me very excited!
Its great to see the project moving forward a little, but I still worry whether the funding will be available.
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Post by cudsn15 on Oct 16, 2019 7:38:38 GMT
"The Bakerloo is short of stabling space, and will be until it reaches the Hayes line. Reversing capacity is expensive to provide." If the first phase does get built (big if at the moment) how many more trains will be required to run a good service? and where would the extra trains be stabled? |
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Post by Chris M on Oct 16, 2019 8:58:08 GMT
They are planning for the extra trains to be stabled at Wearside Road, about halfway between Lewisham and Ladywell stations. consultations.tfl.gov.uk/tube/bakerloo-extension/user_uploads/wearside-road-council-depot-factsheet-9.pdfMore trains will obviously be needed, but it doesn't say how many - I suspect it's not possible to put an exact figure on it before detailed designs are done. The implication is that the extension and new trains will come online around the same time - after the Piccadilly line has got its new trains. |
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Post by John Tuthill on Oct 16, 2019 9:51:38 GMT
Not sure about anyone else, but talk of extensions on London underground lines always gets the inner kid in me very excited! Its great to see the project moving forward a little, but I still worry whether the funding will be available. As this has been talked about since the late 1940s,by the time it's up and running, we'll all be using hoverboards |
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Post by John Tuthill on Oct 16, 2019 9:53:51 GMT
The existing section of line will remain accessible to trains at least as long as London Road Depot is in operation as the junction will be north of there, and there will likely be no point spending money changing the access to the depot. London Road depot link is north of Lambeth North station. New line starts south of there. Check out the carto.metro web site to show track diagram. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Oct 16, 2019 10:01:31 GMT
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Post by ijmad on Oct 16, 2019 10:12:21 GMT
"The Bakerloo is short of stabling space, and will be until it reaches the Hayes line. Reversing capacity is expensive to provide." If the first phase does get built (big if at the moment) how many more trains will be required to run a good service? and where would the extra trains be stabled? Travel time between Lewisham and Elephant on the extension would be 15 minutes according to docs. For a 27tph service this implies about 14 extra trains. However upgrading the Bakerloo core to 27tph will need considerably more trains too. Travel time from Hayes to Lewisham is 23 minutes on current NR services. If we imagine that's reduced to 20 minutes that'd need about 18 more trains, although the plan is to turn some at Catford Bridge so it may be more like 15. This is just guesswork though! |
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Post by jimbo on Oct 16, 2019 10:45:40 GMT
That is the number to replace current fleet. The 2017 consultations said Lewisham with 27tph would require 9 more trains, which would be stabled in the overrun tunnels there. I presume Hayes will require more stabling in the open somewhere. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Oct 16, 2019 10:49:26 GMT
That is the number to replace current fleet. The 2017 consultations said Lewisham with 27tph would require 9 more trains, which would be stabled in the overrun tunnels there. I presume Hayes will require more stabling in the open somewhere. Chris M comment earlier... |
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Post by Chris L on Oct 16, 2019 14:31:13 GMT
Selling the London Road depot for property development could raise a generous contribution towards the costs of the project.
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Post by Chris M on Oct 16, 2019 16:53:02 GMT
But that might require more space at Wearside Road, and wouldn't be realisable until after it is open.
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Post by jimbo on Oct 16, 2019 18:45:12 GMT
Selling the London Road depot for property development could raise a generous contribution towards the costs of the project. Oversite development is planned, but will lose two roads, which will need to be replaced elsewhere. |
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Post by bearbin on Oct 18, 2019 18:21:50 GMT
Oversite development is planned, but will lose two roads, which will need to be replaced elsewhere. This sounds interesting, is there any more information available publicly about this? |
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Post by goldenarrow on Oct 18, 2019 18:47:32 GMT
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Post by jimbo on Oct 18, 2019 19:14:05 GMT
Thanks for that. I had only seen a couple of lines in a TfL document which listed it as a potential development site. |
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Post by stationless on Oct 20, 2019 1:38:48 GMT
Selling the London Road depot for property development could raise a generous contribution towards the costs of the project. I thought I read some time back that TfL had done a deal to develop residential blocks above London Road ? I've now spotted the other posts! |
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Post by jimbo on Oct 20, 2019 5:01:34 GMT
That is the number to replace current fleet. The 2017 consultations said Lewisham with 27tph would require 9 more trains, which would be stabled in the overrun tunnels there. I presume Hayes will require more stabling in the open somewhere. Eight trains shared between two overrun tunnels, with one train in a platform at Lewisham never sounded ideal, even with an access shaft at the far end in Wearside Road Council depot site. Further extension to Hayes would have required a new home for them. Current proposal is to surface and stable on the Wearside Road Council depot site, but if you look at the site it is triangle shaped with the neck at the south end suiting stabling from Ladywell. The 2017 consultation ignored Hayes, concentrating on the tunnel section to Lewisham. It seemed to me that onward to Hayes was always the plan, but tunnel would take longer for permission and build so both would complete around the same time. The latest consultation suggests the same to me, especially with stabling based on such a shaped site. There will still be need for more stabling, probably on an abandoned goods yard along the line. |
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Post by alpinejohn on Oct 20, 2019 18:43:04 GMT
Hmm - Something about this triggered alarm bells as there is usually a reason why any central location is available for relatively little money. A quick search online show the "Wearside Road Council Depot Site is slap bang in the middle of a flood risk area - it is right alongside the River Ravensbourne and that is before any impact of climate change is taken into account. As railways in Japan have just discovered after the latest Typhoon - electric railway trains really do not get on well when submerged, and indeed it looks like a third of their shinkansen fleet may be written off. riverlevels.uk/flood-warning-ravensbourne-at-lewisham#.Xayng2Y8TIUwww3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20191013_54/As you can see sadly a once in a hundred year risk only has to happen once to cause immense damage. |
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Post by commuter on Oct 20, 2019 20:28:20 GMT
Hmm - Something about this triggered alarm bells as there is usually a reason why any central location is available for relatively little money. A quick search online show the "Wearside Road Council Depot Site is slap bang in the middle of a flood risk area - it is right alongside the River Ravensbourne and that is before any impact of climate change is taken into account. As railways in Japan have just discovered after the latest Typhoon - electric railway trains really do not get on well when submerged, and indeed it looks like a third of their shinkansen fleet may be written off. riverlevels.uk/flood-warning-ravensbourne-at-lewisham#.Xayng2Y8TIUwww3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20191013_54/As you can see sadly a once in a hundred year risk only has to happen once to cause immense damage. The official government flood maps (which you can access at flood-warning-information.service.gov.uk/long-term-flood-risk/map) do not show there to be any flood risk for the actual council depot site, which is immediately to the north of the river. The only “Medium risk” area is immediately to the south. |
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Post by Chris M on Oct 20, 2019 20:57:34 GMT
It's also important to remember that the flood risk maps are drawn based on what is there currently. The factsheet linked earlier in the thread acknowledges that work will have to be done to ensure that the depot doesn't flood and/or cause a flood risk to neighbouring properties. Even if the site was currently flooded every year (which it isn't) that would just mean that money would need to be spent to either eliminate the risk of the site flooding (i.e. move the water elsewhere) or deal with the flood water in a way that doesn't impact the trains (probably by intercepting the water and diverting it to holding tanks or something).
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Post by norbitonflyer on Oct 21, 2019 5:59:02 GMT
it looks like a third of their shinkansen fleet may be written off. The article refers to a third of the trains on one line (not the entire network) being damaged, and doesn't say anything about them being damaged beyond repair. |
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