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Post by manorborn on Oct 10, 2019 8:37:32 GMT
Another fault this morning leading to minor delays.
I get the impression that the frequency of faults is increasing. Are there any stats to show if this just an illusion that only strikes on days when I wish to travel?
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Post by commuter on Oct 10, 2019 8:50:51 GMT
A lot of the faults are related to communicating with the new signalling system on the Finchley Rd/Hammersmith to Euston Sq section.
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Post by dagdave on Oct 10, 2019 8:58:45 GMT
I experienced about a five minute delay at Euston Square Inner Road this morning around 7am. Seemed like a communication issue to me as a passenger sitting in the middle of the train. Doors were shut and lights off but every time the train seemed like it was going to move off, it didn't. This happened three or four times, then the driver made and announcement and presumably must have reset something, and we moved off.
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Post by commuter on Oct 10, 2019 9:25:47 GMT
A lot of the faults are related to communicating with the new signalling system on the Finchley Rd/Hammersmith to Euston Sq section. Sorry ... ought to add ... one of this morning’s delays at Euston Sq was Doors Failing To Close and nothing to do with communicating with signalling systems. |
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Oct 10, 2019 10:54:44 GMT
There was an S8 train at Euston Square this morning with door issues that was taken out of service with the door interlocks cut out to obtain forward movement.
It was reversed via Moorgate bay roads to be sent to Neasden depot but upon arrival back at Euston Square the signalling system didn't seem to allow the train to proceed in automatic mode. After some trial and error in consultation with the train technition at Hammersmith control centre, movement was eventually established in protected manual.
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Post by goldenarrow on Oct 10, 2019 12:22:57 GMT
manorborn , Whilst we still have temporary migration areas there is always going to be a liability for teething issues to occur when trains switch over systems. That liability increases given the dominance of computer based control systems in the railway environs. At an LURS meeting this week, it was commented on that there is a known deficit of radiowave coverage in certain locations that could be responsible for trains dropping out of the system going non-communicating (Baker St in recent days). Whilst it’s still safely within tolerances, it’s obviously noticeable enough to warrant remedial action.
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Post by manorborn on Oct 10, 2019 20:40:20 GMT
Thanks Goldenarrow, glad that remedial action is on the table.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Oct 11, 2019 8:22:13 GMT
At and LURS meeting this week, it was commented on that there is a known deficit of radiowave coverage in certain locations that could be responsible for trains dropping out of the system going non-communicating (Baker St in recent days). Whilat there are a few problems at Baker Street the section giving the most trouble is between Royal Oak and Paddington - there are modifications being commissioned this weekend to try and address the issue. The radio coverage is intended to be 400% for reliability purposes. |
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Post by A60stock on Nov 12, 2019 21:20:47 GMT
Caught a semi fast amersham from finchely road (rerouted to watford before wembley park). The train crawled the entire way from Finchley to Moor Park at around 20mph. Surely there cannot have been another train infront of it the whole way (especially after harrow) and it was a semi fast. Very weird and no announcement from the driver re the slow running
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Post by goldenarrow on Nov 12, 2019 22:00:24 GMT
A60stock , You'd be surprised how compressed frequencies get on the Met Line after service disruption. At one point this evening there were Fast line services less than 3 mins apart so it is very plausible that your train was chasing aspects all the way to Bucks especially when taking to account the generous overlaps of signals on that part of the line designed for 60+MPH running and interworking with Chiltern over the Main Lines.
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Post by graeme186 on Nov 13, 2019 22:07:12 GMT
For the second time in 16 days, the 1708 Aldgate to Chesham this evening took one hour longer to travel to my destination station Rickmansworth following an S8 or S7 failing to switch over to CBTC at Euston Square on the Inner Rail. Unfortunately for those Chesham passengers on board, the train was reformed and terminated at Rickmansworth. The next Chesham was another 15 minute wait making an approx 75 minute delay to Chesham commuters.
Whilst I well appreciate some of the issues involved with commissioning CBTC and associated train to wayside integration considerations, we can't keep going on like this can we? I believe an S7 may have had a similar problem at Paddington on the Outer Rail at the same time this evening?
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Post by goldenarrow on Nov 13, 2019 23:33:46 GMT
Whilst I well appreciate some of the issues involved with commissioning CBTC and associated train to wayside integration considerations, we can't keep going on like this can we? I believe an S7 may have had a similar problem at Paddington on the Outer Rail at the same time this evening? It was foreseen that any failures happening in this interim period where going to create snarl ups. That train that failed at Paddington (District) caused a 90 min suspension, my guess is that it was sent through to reverse at Edgware Road in Restricted Manual. Degraded working necessitates a blanket halt of train movements in the area which of course around Praed St Junction means everything and hence before long, knocks out the north side of the Circle. Paddington (District) and Euston Square are particularly unforgiving because of their respective layouts. SMA 3 is in my opinion, slightly better in that even with RM as a last resort, reversing points are not more than a station away. Although of course as is characteristic with the SSR, interlinked working brings interlinked disruption. |
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Post by manorborn on Nov 14, 2019 22:24:19 GMT
And another failure this afternoon. Train was stuck s/b at Finchley Road - I arrived in time to watch a very frustrated-looking driver leaning out of his cab.
I was going n/b - what then irritated was the train arrived from Baker St and then sat at Finchley for about ten minutes before proceeding with a queue building up behind it. We were not told why.
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Post by lukeo on Nov 15, 2019 1:47:18 GMT
And another failure this afternoon. Train was stuck s/b at Finchley Road - I arrived in time to watch a very frustrated-looking driver leaning out of his cab. I was going n/b - what then irritated was the train arrived from Baker St and then sat at Finchley for about ten minutes before proceeding with a queue building up behind it. We were not told why. There was a lengthy discussion on this recently. Apparently if one train is held up, it’s best to hold all trains on the line at the same time to avoid bunching. |
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Post by metrider on Nov 18, 2019 19:42:56 GMT
TFL emailed met travellers today apologising for the recent issues and providing some information about two forthcoming software fixes - one scheduled for later this month (Nov 2019), and another for Jan 2020. They state that they are confident that these will improve reliability. The email referenced the following webpage, which includes all the relevant Information. tfl.gov.uk/travel-information/improvements-and-projects/metropolitan-line-signalling |
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Nov 18, 2019 23:24:05 GMT
TFL emailed met travellers today apologising for the recent issues and providing some information about two forthcoming software fixes - one scheduled for later this month (Nov 2019), and another for Jan 2020. They state that they are confident that these will improve reliability. The email referenced the following webpage, which includes all the relevant Information. tfl.gov.uk/travel-information/improvements-and-projects/metropolitan-line-signallingThe additional resources in strategic locations referred to in the linked document is the re-instatement of the train technicians at Finchley Road and Euston Square with the box of tricks that's used to force the Tripcock Latch Relay over if it dosen't switch over automatically (the Tripcock Latch Relay was discussed in this recent thread). |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2019 0:56:08 GMT
A hammer doesn’t help then 😂
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Post by metrider on Nov 19, 2019 6:47:23 GMT
A hammer doesn’t help then 😂 Hammers ALWAYS help!!!!!!!!! (even in the Computer Network trade!) ..The additional resources in strategic locations referred to in the linked document is the re-instatement of the train technicians at Finchley Road and Euston Square with the box of tricks that's used to force the Tripcock Latch Relay over if it dosen't switch over automatically (the Tripcock Latch Relay was discussed in this recent thread). Well that DOES bode well for when they extend the migration north, and the trains on the fast line pause in the middle of nowhere to perform the transition......Safely stationing assistance there might prove interesting..  |
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Post by bruce on Nov 19, 2019 10:26:01 GMT
A hammer doesn’t help then 😂 Hammers ALWAYS help!!!!!!!!! (even in the Computer Network trade!) <Snip> Well that DOES bode well for when they extend the migration north, and the trains on the fast line pause in the middle of nowhere to perform the transition......Safely stationing assistance there might prove interesting.. A 2lb ball pein hammer is a standard issue in Technical Officers tool kit. Used to come in very handy to do a quick check on a tripcock tester in traffic hours. |
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Nov 19, 2019 10:37:33 GMT
Well that DOES bode well for when they extend the migration north, and the trains on the fast line pause in the middle of nowhere to perform the transition......Safely stationing assistance there might prove interesting.. IF they're still providing a train tech's at that point in the project, they would be positioned at Wembley Park. Trains would be moved in Restricted Manual into the platform. Up until yesterday, train tech's have not been provided at any boundary locations - they were withdrawn two weeks into September. There still won't be any provided at Paddington (District & Circle) as S7's don't seem to suffer Tripcock Latch Relay failure's whereas the S8's seem to be quite prone to this particular issue. One would like to think they'll sort the root cause of the S8 failures long before SMA8 goes live. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2019 11:04:03 GMT
Hammers ALWAYS help!!!!!!!!! (even in the Computer Network trade!) A 2lb ball pein hammer is a standard issue in Technical Officers tool kit. Used to come in very handy to do a quick check on a tripcock tester in traffic hours. But your forgetting the weight of the handle also hence why now they have given us 2lb weights |
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Post by graeme186 on Dec 21, 2019 22:36:07 GMT
Do we know the reason for yesterday evening's failed train incident? Was it CBTC related? I believe it involved the 1734 Aldgate to Watford service and couldn't be moved for over an hour north of Baker Street? I was on the 1754 Aldgate to Amersham service which eventually got to Farringdon about 1850. We were then asked to leave the train as it was the Controller's intention to hold the train between Farringdon and King's Cross for approx. 20 mins as trains were slowly worked along the Inner Rail station to station. I caught Thameslink to West Hampstead, Jubilee Line to Wembley Park, a Neasden Depot starter to Harrow and yes....re-joined the Amersham train I had left at Farringdon an hour or so earlier!
There was also a signal failure later on yesterday evening at Wembley Park suspending the service south to Aldgate which may have been a repeat of a failure that happened yesterday morning similarly suspending the service south of Wembley Park.
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Post by t697 on Dec 21, 2019 22:55:52 GMT
Do we know the reason for yesterday evening's failed train incident? Was it CBTC related? I believe it involved the 1734 Aldgate to Watford service and couldn't be moved for over an hour north of Baker Street? I was on the 1754 Aldgate to Amersham service which eventually got to Farringdon about 1850. We were then asked to leave the train as it was the Controller's intention to hold the train between Farringdon and King's Cross for approx. 20 mins as trains were slowly worked along the Inner Rail station to station. I caught Thameslink to West Hampstead, Jubilee Line to Wembley Park, a Neasden Depot starter to Harrow and yes....re-joined the Amersham train I had left at Farringdon an hour or so earlier! There was also a signal failure later on yesterday evening at Wembley Park suspending the service south to Aldgate which may have been a repeat of a failure that happened yesterday morning similarly suspending the service south of Wembley Park. Train understood to be in PM got gapped in the 10mi/h section leaving Baker St 2 NB apparently. There are queries as to why this is limited to 10mi/h since it wasn't with old signalling. Looks like improvements to come... |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2019 12:29:11 GMT
You sure it was PM and not RM? PM would be full line speed whereas RM would be around 11mph / 18kph
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Dec 22, 2019 13:14:43 GMT
We are forced to depart Edgware Road on the inner rail at 10mph in PM (same in ATO) despite it previously being 15mph under legacy signalling - again nobody knows why.....
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Post by MoreToJack on Dec 22, 2019 14:51:39 GMT
The gapped train was in PM. Whilst I don’t feel comfortable saying more in public, CBTC was not (directly) at fault as originally thought.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2019 15:48:29 GMT
If the train was in PM mode then CBTC was working as its signalling the train just not controlling it
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Dec 22, 2019 16:08:00 GMT
Well CBTC was operating. Whether it was operating as intended is not something that can be reliably inferred from the train being in PM. If it wasn't operating as intended, then it could be an issue with hardware (or humans) on the train, an issue between the train and signalling system, or an issue with the signalling system. If the latter then it could be doing something other than what it was told, or it could be that what it was told was different from what it was intended to be told. It sounds from MoreToJack's comment that the issue is due to a combination of human and technology rather than simply one of technology. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2019 16:15:53 GMT
Well CBTC was operating. Whether it was operating as intended is not something that can be reliably inferred from the train being in PM. If it wasn't operating as intended, then it could be an issue with hardware (or humans) on the train, an issue between the train and signalling system, or an issue with the signalling system. If the latter then it could be doing something other than what it was told, or it could be that what it was told was different from what it was intended to be told. It sounds from MoreToJack's comment that the issue is due to a combination of human and technology rather than simply one of technology. PM is a mode where the train op is controlling the train but CBTC is communicating with the train and signalling the train if it wasn't then the train would be in RM Clue is in the name Protected Manual, the train is being protected from the signalling |
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Post by Chris M on Dec 22, 2019 16:59:03 GMT
@aetearlscourt yes - my point is that "working" can imply "working correctly" but we cannot infer from the information that is public that it was working correctly, only that it was working in some fashion.
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